Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardener
If you can't hear sense and order in pieces by, say, Webern you obviously have never really listened to them... And it's not about "purposely floating all standard senses of music" (aside from the fact that the term "standard senses of music" is highly dubitable). Contrary to popular belief the 12-tone system wasn't just "made up out of the blue", but is merely an attempt to formalise a kind of very expressive music that had developed for quite some time, to structurize it.
The point why I brought up fugues, is that they are clearly much more "mathematical" than dodecaphonic music. The compositional freedoms in 12-tone music are generally greater than the freedoms in a fugue, which is very much determined by strict rules. Both are highly structured systems, both only serve the music in the end. It (partly) is the beauty of the structure we enjoy, both in a Bach fugue and a piece by Webern.
(True serialist music, as it appeared in the fifties is of course a slightly different matter, as it is much more goverened by strict rules than Schoenbergs 12-tone music. However, even there deciding on the musical rules is a highly individual process.)
And your example of why Schoenberg's music is random astounds me: Purposefully evading tonality is random? How can a purpose be random? If Schoenberg had wanted to write random sounding music he clearly would have used dice, right? I have several times listened to actual random music (written with dice, computer algorithms etc.), and I assure you, it sounds nothing like Schoenberg.
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First of all: I never said that the 12-tone system was made up out of the blue. However, it's ultimate purpose was to use mathmatical forumlae to ensure that the music produced had absolutly no leaning into one tonality. Thus, it is trying to keep the music random, by avoiding all tonalities and making sure all 12 notes of the chromatic scale are used in equal distribution. At least, that's what true 12-tone theory states. Some have obviously modified it to their own needs. Also, I have no issues with atonailty. My favorite composer is Scriabin, and I like his late atonal works the best.
Regarding fugues: They do have strict rules. However, if you abide strictly by those rules with no freedom of expression, you get the crap that 19th century composers turned out in fugues. You need to have some freedom to it. That's what makes Bach the ultimate master of the fugue. He knew how to control it to his advantage, taking the rules and bending them to his needs.
To have a purpose is not random. However, that purpose can be random. Making sure that all 12 notes are used equally, to avoid any standard views on tonality is trying to be as random as possible. It might not be random in the sense that it's very structured, but the purpose of it is to make the music as random as possible, to the ears of the listener.