Crusader of Wrong Note Consonance

Some People consider my music to be atonal while others say it just has an abundance of dissonance in it. A friend of mine says my music is mostly just Wrong note consonance, hence the name of the piece.

It is around 5 minutes long right now, but I don't think I am finished with it yet, even though there is an ending to it.

My original intent with this was to compose a piece about Crusaders and the Holy wars. I started this piece back in December and finally finished it a few days ago and have been playing with the rendering ever since.

Once again, this piece was composed in Sibelius and effects were added in Sonar. All of the instruments are either GPO or JABB.


Here it is

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Any and all comments are appreciated including suggestions as to making it longer or leaving it as is.

Thanks and try to enjoy

Ron

Thank you for getting Monty Python back in the forefront of my mind, for that's the first thing I think of when the Crusades and Holy Wars are mentioned.

So my favourite parts was.... well, let me put it this way . . . this piece was like raging rapids and I used the chimes to grab hold of and watch everything else fly by. I did like the chimes, I don't think the piece would have made much sense without them. About your rendering.... the brass sounded like they were little plastic trumpets and trombones making racket while still in the original packaging. Bring them out, try to get a fuller sound with them and balance everything else. Remember, these metal things are LOUD, and especially in your random happier section more towards the end I can hardly here them at all. Nice woodwinds, though. You have to work to do on getting the best out of your string sounds, though, they are capable of more than what you've shown.

I really like the creative title, because it really describes your style. Indeed, when I heard the first 5 seconds of the piece I chuckled aloud, because it is just so true. Your wrong note consonance style is perfectly fine, but unless you are scoring for video/film (which I know you have dabbled in) I think you should work on bringing out more recognisable themes, things that the listener can really grab hold of. Right now, it sounds like music. Music .... but not necessarily with a purpose or direction other than form. I happen to be very old-fashioned and traditionalist, so bear that in mind, but my suggestion would be to (in future compositions) work on introducing and developing more recognisable, or "catchy" tunes. There's nothing I can really remember well from this piece after several listens, and that is only my concern. As an incidental work, though, I think it would be fine. It did feel like it was telling the story. It does sound to me like it has reached a conclusion though, but I miss a sort of recapitulation. The question is whether such a thing is necessary.

Cheers to ya, mate. Hope to see more stuff, I enjoy listening to your wrong note consonance.

James

Thanks for the listen.

I know there is a lot going on in this one.

I did a remix and increased the brass. Actually, I just added brass from the Cakewalk player. I think it helps.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks again

Ron

Whoa!

*is blown backwards out of chair*

That was nice, immediate improvement! The brass actually sound like something now. Thankee!
Boy, that trumpet parts sounds fun.... that hectic one towards the end.

I still adore the chimes.

Come to think of it.... if you REALLY wanted, I suppose you could add a recap. or sorts... you would have to make some changes, though. It might just work though, if you want it to.

Some People consider my music to be atonal while others say it just has an abundance of dissonance in it. A friend of mine says my music is mostly just Wrong note consonance, hence the name of the piece.

I think that snippet sums up the way in which you compose in a remarkably succinct manner.

What I tend to find with your pieces is that there's the odd section which I find really interesting, then the odd section which counteracts the interest I experienced previously.

Fundamentally, I think it's the blurred definitions of "atonal" and "wrong notes". When you're working with material which really is entirely removed from what we would normally consider Western tonality, you do it very well. For example, the opening motif in this piece (on the clarinet and then the flute). Sounds like it could have come straight from Ligeti's Chamber Concert for 13 Instrumentalists.

Then, at around 1:02, you move towards greater consonance, mixed with some discordant melodic material which, despite being discordant, still works. (Kind of like how Vaughan Williams develops the folk melodies in his works)

But at around 1:36, you move onto something which sounds like it wants to be tonal, but isn't. There's no score, but by ear it sounds as though you have tonal material stacked up in multiple keys. And not in an Ives-like bitonal fashion, either.

It's this "schizophrenia" - the uncertainty as to whether you're trying to be tonal or atonal - which will confuse some listeners. Almost like an outsider sitting down in India to play Raga music, only to use notes not from the pentatonic scale. Within the context of what one expects, or is conditioned to recognise, it doesn't work, and people won't find it accessible.

In order to write truly "atonal" music, it helps first to understand how exactly you are flying in the face of these once-established rules.

I hope that makes sense. If it came across as a personal attack in any way then please ask me to re-phrase, because that was certainly not my intention.

Have you been teaching yourself some orchestration, by the way? I love how you've spread some of the sonorities.

Originally Posted by Mike

Fundamentally, I think it's the blurred definitions of "atonal" and "wrong notes". When you're working with material which really is entirely removed from what we would normally consider Western tonality, you do it very well. For example, the opening motif in this piece (on the clarinet and then the flute). Sounds like it could have come straight from Ligeti's Chamber Concert for 13 Instrumentalists.


But at around 1:36, you move onto something which sounds like it wants to be tonal, but isn't. There's no score, but by ear it sounds as though you have tonal material stacked up in multiple keys.

It's this "schizophrenia" - the uncertainty as to whether you're trying to be tonal or atonal - which will confuse some listeners. Almost like an outsider sitting down in India to play Raga music, only to use notes not from the pentatonic scale. Within the context of what one expects, or is conditioned to recognise, it doesn't work, and people won't find it accessible.

In order to write truly "atonal" music, it helps first to understand how exactly you are flying in the face of these once-established rules.

Mike

First off I see no attack here at all, so rest easy, I will not ask you to rephrase.

Many people here and elsewhere confuse dissonace and atonality. I am not a real big fan of strict atonal works. However, I am a big fan of dissonace. Your description of a man sitting down in India to play Ragu is exactly what I do. I try to find the unexpected and use it and when I do it right, it becomes expected. I love to stack chords in multiple keys as well.

So I agree with all you have to say except for

In order to write truly "atonal" music, it helps first to understand how exactly you are flying in the face of these once-established rules.

and that is just because I try not to compose strictly atonally.

I do the same to atonal music that I do to tonal music. There is a mixture in between that I really enjoy. Fortunately, I compose for my satisfaction and not for those who follow all of the rules. That is not to say I don't follow the rules because I think I do follow most of them, I just ignore a few along the way.

When Beethoven did his 1st discordant chord in his 3rd (??) symphony, the world was aghast. I am not trying to compare myself to Beethoven here, just to say that music does change.

I am well aware that there are many people who will hear this and just hate it. Some will tolerate it and the few left will actually enjoy it. Again, I have the priviledge of being able to compose what I like, not something that is required to make the masses happy.

I once took my Father to a Symphony done by a guy from Mexico. I don't remember the composers name, but he lived around the turn of the century until about 1950 or so. After the concert my father asked me why at the beginning, the orchestra even took the time to tune to each other. I thought the piece was rather tame in its use of dissonance, but what was there convinced my father that no one was in tune.

I really think that most of my music is tonal with a few twists and turns to keep me on my toes. When I first heard the term Wrong Note Consonance, I knew right away that that is what I do.

I have been studying Orchestration all of my life, but it doesn't always show thru.

The last thing is that I don't take credit for what I compose. I compose what I hear in my head and where that comes from I don't know. So don't Blame me!

Thanks for the listen and the in depth analysis. It is always nice to know that someone is listening.

Ron

Originally Posted by EnigmusJ4

Whoa!

*is blown backwards out of chair*

That was nice, immediate improvement! The brass actually sound like something now. Thankee!
Boy, that trumpet parts sounds fun.... that hectic one towards the end.

I still adore the chimes.

Come to think of it.... if you REALLY wanted, I suppose you could add a recap. or sorts... you would have to make some changes, though. It might just work though, if you want it to.

James

Sorry I missed your update. I think I over did the brass a little there, so I toned them down a little and reposted a newer version. It is between the first and the second and I think it gets the brass a little closer to what I want. I may go back and make them just a touch louder, but that has got to wait for a bit.

Thanks for taking a second look.

Ron

Ron,

The mood is very bleak with twists of a more upbeat nature - you are attempting a difficult concept.

But I'll have to get back to you as it is very late (well early morning) here. I need a few more listens when I am fresh. There is something in what Mike has said although I am not sure it is the change in harmonic style that is the problem, if there is a problem.

Herb

Sounds very funny in a good way, I like adding half steps in alot in my songs to create suspence and mood change, good job.

Ron,

This piece has possibilities, The opening is very strong as is the section from about 1:33 to 2:40. The change in atonal harmonic styles doesn't bother me but it may do so for many listeners.

There is often not a lot of space around each instrument so the parts get blurred - is that what you were using Sonar to achieve? I'm more of a purist who likes to hear each instrument. There is a touch of an electroacoustic sound to your mix - not necessarily bad but on the other hand a curious use of real instruments.

The glides (glissando) at 0:40 may not have the effect you want. The cliche from movies and cartoons is that this represents inebriation or "seeing stars" after a bop on the head. Once something becomes a cliche it is hard to use it otherwise.

The happy mood that sets in abruptly at 3:50 and persists is a surprise. It can be heard in a comical way which I'm sure isn't your intent. I was expecting the happy mood to gradually metamorphose into the previous mood but it didn't. I think the ending needs work. Or perhaps have the happy section occur earlier - it seems too much a change to occur just before the close.

I had an idea this morning that you might introduce a folk melody, or melodies, about war and superimpose these well-known melodies over what you have. Just an off-the-cuff idea - say "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" or "Two Grenadiers".

Asdie from the ending, I think the piece is very close to satisfactorily expressing what you intended - which is the whole point, isn't it?

Herb