Gershwin- Classical or Jazz?

ok wow! To EldKatt - Ignorance isn't something I'm afraid to admit - I wouldn't post in here if I didn't know what I was talking about. But you are misinterpreting what my posts are saying. I was never saying Gershwin's music wasn't some form of 'jazz' (which depends on your PERSONAL definitions, because jazz is not a clearly labeled thing, like say common practice tonality or serialism), I was merely offering a redefinition of the kind of jazz we were talking, and asserting that a more common term (in my experience) for the type of 'jazz' Gershwin embodied was indeed NOT the Miles Davis and Coltrane jazz, but the musical theater, Jerome Kern, Americana jazz of the time. I saw people's posts as extremely general and sometimes lopsided, so I decided to offer a clarification.

And also, I'm a bad writer and tend not to be clear, so I apologize!

p.s. I agree most with Zetetic! Gershwin's music is not easily categorized, which was the whole cause for my initial post.

[pipes in]

I don't think anything Gershwin ever wrote could be called 'jazz'. The tunes from the shows were easily adapted to jazz...but his arrangements and orchestrations were decidedly not jazz.

I don't think...

Ah! EldKatt! He accused me of similar ignorance on the Wikipedia threads in re: orchestration (!). A fair warning to those here that he is quite accusatory.

And BTW, what oingo86 said was not ignorance at all. I'm on his side.

Originally Posted by oingo86

the type of 'jazz' Gershwin embodied was indeed NOT the Miles Davis and Coltrane jazz, but the musical theater, Jerome Kern, Americana jazz of the time.

Remember that while musical theatre at the time was moving closer to forms of rag, it was still heavily based on operetta at this point in time. Musical theatre of Gershwin's time was not relying on the jazz of the time, but something closer to a combination of [what would become] swing/big band and forms of popular music from vaudeville. What we know as "standards" (many of which have been translated into jazz) come from the Musical Theatre of the time. So to say that Gershwin embodied a Musical Theatre sound is incorrect.

Listen to "Rhapsody in Blue" or "Piano Concerto in F." Do those sound like Musical Theatre?

If the jazz of the time reminds you of musical theatre it's because of George Gershwin. The trend toward that kind of musical theatre/jazz sound on Broadway came about later in his career. He influenced musical theatre, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by oingo86

ok wow! To EldKatt - Ignorance isn't something I'm afraid to admit - I wouldn't post in here if I didn't know what I was talking about. But you are misinterpreting what my posts are saying. I was never saying Gershwin's music wasn't some form of 'jazz' (which depends on your PERSONAL definitions, because jazz is not a clearly labeled thing, like say common practice tonality or serialism), I was merely offering a redefinition of the kind of jazz we were talking, and asserting that a more common term (in my experience) for the type of 'jazz' Gershwin embodied was indeed NOT the Miles Davis and Coltrane jazz, but the musical theater, Jerome Kern, Americana jazz of the time. I saw people's posts as extremely general and sometimes lopsided, so I decided to offer a clarification.

I really ought to clarify, too, that I have very little knowledge of Gershwin's music, so I am making no assertion regarding whether or not Gershwin's music could be called jazz. My point was more generally that I'm somewhat skeptical towards a definition of jazz that excludes much of what, historically speaking, was at its time regarded as jazz, in favor of more "alive" traditions (in other words, one that entirely excludes "the 'jazz' of Gershwin's day"). I'm not saying that this includes musical theater, nor that it includes Gershwin, so it may indeed have little to do with anything here, including, I realize, what you were saying, so yeah. Nothing to see here. Anyhow, my remark about ignorance was obviously uncalled-for and overly caustic... I apologize for this.

Originally Posted by Justin Tokke

Ah! EldKatt! He accused me of similar ignorance on the Wikipedia threads in re: orchestration (!). A fair warning to those here that he is quite accusatory.

Justin, I think those here who have read more than a few of my posts already have sufficient grounds to judge how I "am", without your warnings--more so than you do, if I may guess. But since you bring it up, the issue over on Wikipedia was about you acting on a fairly large scale (a large number of edits on a large number of pages) against consensus and thus against Wikipedia guidelines, while refusing rather stubbornly to try to establish such a consensus through discussion. I was far from the only editor who tried to talk to you about this (in, I might add, a perfectly civil manner now that I glance over at your talk page). I never accused you of ignorance--I frankly don't know where you got that. Anyone interested can judge for themselves on the relevant discussion pages on Wikipedia.

Since I'm not acting in the name of Wikipedia here, I'll take the opportunity to say that while I have never had any intention of judging your character by your actions on Wikipedia (in other words, it's nothing personal from my part), you're making quite the ass of yourself right now. Seriously, is this how you try to gain respect and acceptance in a new community? This is clearly between you and me, so if you intend to make a big deal of this, please take it with me through PM and don't litter this thread. Thanks.

Except for Rhapsody in Blue, An American in Paris, and his Piano Concerto in F, I know only little about him, but the three pieces I mentioned I can conclude that he had his own voice that I find no point in trying to find out whether he leans to Classical or Jazz.

To plainly say it, it's all music. Really wonderful honest music.

I don't see the point of classifying Gershwin's music.

I think I'm missing it.

Can someone please tell me where it is?