Hardest Orchestra piece?

What do you think is the most difficult piece for full orchestra in the standard repetoire? The piece would have to have everthing, including a hefty length, gigantic orchestration, displays of fiery virtuosity, and also moments of profound gentleness requiring the utmost attention to muscianship from all the players.

There are probably a lot of pieces that fit this category, but my vote goes for the ballet Daphnis et Chloe (not the suites, the full length ballet) by Ravel. Just hearing it and following the score tells me it must be a nightmare to play and prepare - but extordinarily fun to listen to!

I don't think the hardest orchestra piece necessarily needs to call for gigantic orchestration. IMHO, Stravinsky's Firebird Suite is the most difficult piece I know of for an orchestra to play. The virtuosity required of every single musician in the orchestra in the Infernal Dance is ridiculous.

Interesting, I had not thought of the Firebird - I don't have the music, but it does sound extremely difficult. Oh, and all I meant by gigantic orchestration is that it calls for a large orchestra - I should have just said 'large orchestra'. Daphnis really has the same orchestration as Firebird, except Daphnis also has a wind machine and a wordless chorus.

But I would have to say that technically, the complete Firebird ballet is harder than the Firebird Suite. I really much prefer to listen to the whole ballet (which is quite long) than the suite, I can get so much more enjoyment from it - plus the ballet has all of the music from the suite and a lot more that is also difficult.

any Mahler symphonies, Schubert's symphony #9 last movement allegro vivace, pretty difficult for the string players

I'd have to say Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra or Pelleas Und Melisande. Although Five pieces isn't to lengthy the players have to be EXTREMELEY sensitive and have total understanding of the beat and feel of the music to perform it correctly.

Or Elliot Carters Three occassions, Professionals actually have to practice that piece.

I've played several of the pieces mentioned here, and I have sung Daphnis and Chloe - insanely difficult for everyone concerned, but worth it in the end.

The single most technically difficult piece I've ever had to play so far in an orchestra, hands down, was "L'Apprenti Sourcier" by Paul Dukas.

I don't think that the Firedbird Suite is near as difficult as others... of course it is tough, but if my high school was able to play it very well last year, I wouldn't think it to be too difficult. I think that a ver difficult one however, is Mussoursgky's Night On Bald Mountain... if you listen to the tempo it's supposed to be at, well, I'll put it this way: It's insane.

Yeah...I've played three movements of the 1919 in two different ensembles and they were all right really. Tricky in places (* coughs * Infernal Dance * coughs *), but not difficult to follow, at least.

I was going to say the hardest piece I've ever <strike>played</strike> tried to play was 'The Moldau' but then, I doubt the rest of the orchestra would agree with me. Ah well.

Having played both the Firebird and "Die Moldau", on viola, I'd say the Firebird Suite was far more difficult.

But then I also find a lot of things in string playing difficult that others seem to have no problem at all with, and find some things easy that most string players struggle with...

It could just have been that I was quite a bit younger when trying to play 'The Moldau', come to think of it...