The holy grail of notation programs!

Originally Posted by Verdi_Lver

You didn't have improv. in mind while reading my posts, did you ? I would hope not, as obviously that would require much more than a notation program.

True enough...and no, I didn't mean to drag in improvisation

Many jazz-type genres are stylistically resistant to your synthesis, though. Swing feel is something that eludes many serious human players, I don't think any computer will get it quite right ...other aspects: articulation, phrasing, etc I expect will also be quite troublesome, and might take a while longer to perfect the programming ...

Originally Posted by Verdi_Lver

Since you brought it up, though, what about when humans are simulated? Say a computer could act exactly like a human....I wonder if then improv. could be incorporated.

I'm sure computers will "improvise" - shit, they probably already do. But it'll sound...off. It'll never be convincing, and will lack the essential spark that will identify it as soulful...

Originally Posted by robinjessome

I'm sure computers will "improvise" - shit, they probably already do. But it'll sound...off. It'll never be convincing, and will lack the essential spark that will identify it as soulful...

They do improvise! The program "Band In A Box" does it quit well (for a computer anyway). It has many pre-programed styles and I guess scales and note choices to select from and then plays them back in some kind of logical order over the chords you input. It still sounds like a computer playing it but its probably the best improvising a computer can give. Its a nice program to use as a practice tool. PG Music Inc. - Band-in-a-Box, PowerTracks Pro Audio, and More...

Gotta disagree with you robin. I think its just a matter of time. Who thought in the 70's computers would ever be able to chuck out such realistic music as they do today? I doubt very many at all. It's just a matter of time, and maybe not even that much time. 10 years? 20? It's certainly not far off.

When push comes to shove, music isn't about the players playing it, it's about the sound they create. What you say is soulfoul is just a certain pattern of air vibrations that makes you feel that it is "soulful". If a computer could reproduce that sound exactly it would feel exactly the same. Maybe if you knew it was coming froma computer you would subconciously reject it, but if you didn't you would say it was just as soulful.

OK, by todays standards I agree with you. But I'm 99% sure that it WILL happen, and probably well within our lifetimes.

Originally Posted by Fox

Gotta disagree with you robin. I think its just a matter of time. ...music isn't about the players playing it, it's about the sound they create. If a computer could reproduce that sound exactly it would feel exactly the same.

*shakes head dismissively*

Nah, I'm sure they'll get it 95-97% figured out, but that last bit - the part that makes improvised music genuine and powerful - will never be replicated synthetically.

BUT, what do I know?! Ask me again in 30-years. I'll probably ask to mow your lawn for cash.

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Also, are we only considering the recording side of things? What about live performances? No one's gonna want to see Beethoven's 5th performed by three laptops... well, someone would...but not many.

It's interesting to think about the methodology that could potentially be used to emulate human playback (and by that, I mean real human playback, not Finale's existing technology ).

I'm thinking the underlying principle could work along the same lines as motion capture does for animation. Load the score for a Bach partita into a computer, set a performer down to play it, then analyse how their interpretation of each individual instruction differs from or is faithful to the written material. If you went through this process with several hundred performers, you might be able to construct a primitive library of "Baroque performance nuances". Then, it would be a simple matter of incorporating that into a sequencer, notation software package, etc.

Given these generalised nuances, it might be possible to get it to think originally with some AI.

Jazz is probably a whole different kettle of fish.

Jazz is always a whole diferent kettle of fish.

I agree with what Mike says - given a score and recordings of that score by different musicians, a library of "performer nuances" could be built up and then added to the playback of software like Finale or Sibelius.

There is a problem in naming these nuances - a problem already encountered by wine tasters who have had to develop and standardize a new vocabulary. Think of it - if Finale listed several hundred playback nuances, and you could click on a new menu to select one just as you now can select a fermata or staccato, it would be both powerful and cumbersome. So probably some type of AI program would be needed to assist the "composer".

Once the analysis of music gets going, why stop at just performance nuances? A further step is just to ask the computer to write a symphony in A minor with 40% the style of Sibelius and 60% the style of Berlioz with a series of options presented for the details.

I can see music in the future dividing into two forms: one akin to TV dinners (the computer AI generated variety), and one akin to home cooking (composed by a human with limited computer assistance).

I wonder if a generation raised on mp3 quality sound will care about nuances?

You know, I didn't have to read any of this tread to know my answer-

While it may someday become possible to replicate the sounds and playback of a real player, it will never be quite the same as hearing music live. There are some things that may take many years to replicate perfectly- such as the many countless details of the sound of the performance, or they might be discovered tomorrow. I don't know, and I can't predict that kind of thing.

The one thing a computer will never be able to replicate is the thrill of watching performances live. It's nice to hear a recording of a good player, but I find that I get really excited when I go see and hear live music by a good performer. No computer technology could replicate that. None. And don't tell me that it may be possible, because even if it happens, it will never be satisfactory. Besides, concert-goers in both Classical music and rock and pop music and ALL types of music aren't just going to STOP GOING- There's that thrill of seeing that band/orchestra that you love to listen to that is indistinguishable by technology.

EDIT: Now that I have read a bit of the thread, it sounds to me that you guys are thinking up ideas of things that I would categorize under the movie War Games- computers that could store all kinds of different things, and could learn more of them! Can you say-
Would you like to play a game?

You bring up some pretty good points. Thanks Alan . You're right about that real performance, thing, though, with real people. That's something that computers can never have, unless they trick us. But then it isn't real .