I hate pop music

I agree with one or two of your points, but I'm afraid you are massively over-generalising pop music here. Listen to some of the music suggested thus far, then see if you still feel the same way

Some have contended that I’m generalizing about pop music. I know I am generalizing to some extent and that there are always exceptions to the rule, but there’s nothing wrong with generalizing if the vast majority of the cases supports your generalization. And the vast majority of all pop music I’ve heard (once again, I’m talking about pop music in the broadest sense of the term, covering all its subgenres, from mainstream pop/rock to hiphop to rap to heavy metal to punk to techno to reggae, and so on) sucks when compared to the richness and profoundness of classical music (also in the broadest sense of the term, from Machaut to Palestrina to Monteverdi to Bach to Mozart to Beethoven to Wagner to Mahler to Debussy to Stravinsky to contemporary classical).

Some have also asserted that good pop music does exist. The notion that pop music is musically inferior to classical music in many respects, doesn't exclude the fact that there are a few pop artists and bands out there showing genuine musical creativity in their songs. I personally, however, find this supposed creativity in pop music still a farce when compared to the creativity shown by the great classical composers. Radiohead was mentioned as an example of good pop music (true, I liked their albums Ok Computer and Kid A when I was younger). Indeed, they are an original and creative band according to the standards of pop music, but when compared to the standards of classical music their music suddenly isn't that special anymore... I mean, compare the creativity it takes to make an album like Ok Computer to the creativity it takes to compose a St. Matthew's Passion or a Mahler symphony - it's a no-brainer that the former is not a patch on the latter.

(Continued in my next post...)

Alan, let me briefly comment on some of your points.
2) Yes, every music has a structure, but classical music often has a structure which is way more complex, refined and ingenious than the often simplistic and predictable song structures found in pop music.
3) That point of mine was meant to illustrate the ridiculous cultural status pop music enjoys today.Apparently pop music has so much value to so many people in our culture, that we are even interested in the personal lives and opinions of pop artists even though they are often nitwits with little musical talent.
5) See my comment on the “complexity issue” below.
7) Classical music is not written anymore? I’m not talking about the classical style (Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven) but about classical music in general, including contemporary classical music (e.g., Boulez, Carter ) which sure is classical music still being written today.

Now on to the “complexity issue” (as addressed by Nikolas, Niku and Alan). Nikolas asked the question: “since when should music be complicated to be worthy?” Let me make clear that I’m not saying music should be complex in order to be worthy. At times I can really enjoy, say, a Schubert ländler, which is not particularly complicated. However, I am convinced that the greatest masterpieces in classical music (e.g., Bach’s St Matthew’s Passion, Beethoven’s 9th, Wagner’s Ring) all have a deep intellectual and emotional complexity which is absent in most, if not all pop music.

Oh and Niku, those examples you give – Gregorian Chant and Indian classical music (but note that I am mainly talking about Western classical music) – are not good examples to refute my assumption that classical music is richer, more complex and more refined than pop music. First, Gregorian chant has a melodic richness and melodic sophistication not to be found in most western pop music –just study any of the more florid gregorian melodies and you’ll probably agree that these melodies can be considered the most perfect, most convincing one-line compositions ever conceived. Indian classical music also has a rhythmic, melodic and formal richness and refinement that makes all rap music seem like a joke.

Finally I should stress that it’s not just the music itself that bothers me about pop music, it’s also the undeservedly huge cultural status pop music has acquired at the expense of classical music (which is thereby pushed into a “cultural ghetto”) that bothers me at least as much.

Originally Posted by gianluca

Alan, let me briefly comment on some of your points.
2) Yes, every music has a structure, but classical music often has a structure which is way more complex, refined and ingenious than the often simplistic and predictable song structures in pop music.
3) That point was meant to illustrate the ridiculous cultural status pop music enjoys today.
Apparently pop music has so much value to so many people in our culture, that we are even interested in the personal lives and opinions of pop artists even though they are often nitwits with little musical talent.
5) See my comment on the “complexity issue” below.
7) Classical music is not written anymore? I’m not talking about the classical style (Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven) but about classical music in general, including contemporary classical music (e.g., Boulez, Carter ) which sure is classical music still being written today.

Now on to the “complexity issue” (as addressed by Nikolas, Niku and Alan). Nikolas asked the question: “since when should music be complicated to be worthy?” Let me make clear that I’m not saying music should be complex in order to be worthy. But I do believe that a certain degree of intellectual and emotional complexity At times I can really enjoy, say, a Schubert ländler, which is not particularly complicated. However, I am convinced that the greatest masterpieces in classical music (e.g., Bach’s St Matthew’s Passion, Beethoven’s 9th, Wagner’s Ring) all have a deep intellectual and emotional complexity which is absent in most, if not all pop music.

Finally I should stress that it’s not just the music itself that bothers me about pop music, it’s also the undeservedly huge cultural status pop music has acquired at the expense of classical music (which is thereby pushed into a “cultural ghetto”) that bothers me at least as much.

Let me ask you this- Have you ever liked something just because it sounded good, like when you were young and didn't know much about music? Have you ever liked something because it had a nice tune like, say, An American in Paris by Gerswin?

I didn't think so. see, it doesn't hurt to like something because it challenges the mind a little, but music isn't written to be analyzed or critiqued, but it meant to be heard. If all you can do is talk about how emotional a piece is, let me open a new door for you- plenty of songs have emotion. Pop is not limited to Beyonce and High School Musical. It includes "I'm not that Girl" from Wicked, and other songs from broadway, which are stellar achievements. Let me suggest this to you; if you need confirmation that plenty of pop music is not bad, listen to the entire Wicked musical. It has plenty of pop style songs. Granted, these are better than most of them, they are still good, and are about reasonable things (not vulgar, like you said before). If you ask me, you are a snob. I hate to say it, but it's what you're telling us here, and I apologize, but it had to be said. I mean that in the nicest way; simply because you are.

On the other hand, I can see where you come from on this entire topic. I mentioned it before, I once hated pop music just as much as you. And then, I found that if you get someone who can write music into the pop field, then you start getting some good pop songs.
I'm sorry if I've gone too far, but I feel that you needed to know.
Alan

I don't think a causal link between the rise of popular music and the decline of classical music is that clear. One could, for example, make just as good an argument blaming classical composers themselves and modernism for audiences switching off to classical music.

If people want to listen to pop music that's fine. If they want to hold it up as great music that's also fine. Why does this bother you so much? Clearly you don't see it as deserving of any cultural status but others do, including, as you've seen from the posts in this thread, people who understand music well.

As I've said in my earlier post, one of the main reasons for classical music being ghettoised is the fact that kids aren't exposed to it and that primarily is the fault of our schools more than anything else. Get kids listening to classical music at an early age and many will love it. Some won't and some, like you, may decide to listen to it exclusivley. But most, I believe, will probably choose to listen to both pop and classical.

Originally Posted by rob1984

I don't think a causal link between the rise of popular music and the decline of classical music is that clear. One could, for example, make just as good an argument blaming classical composers themselves and modernism for audiences switching off to classical music.

If people want to listen to pop music that's fine. If they want to hold it up as great music that's also fine. Why does this bother you so much? Clearly you don't see it as deserving of any cultural status but others do, including, as you've seen from the posts in this thread, people who understand music well.

As I've said in my earlier post, one of the main reasons for classical music being ghettoised is the fact that kids aren't exposed to it and that primarily is the fault of our schools more than anything else. Get kids listening to classical music at an early age and many will love it. Some won't and some, like you, may decide to listen to it exclusivley. But most, I believe, will probably choose to listen to both pop and classical.

Couldn't have said it better!

I think the difference, in general, is that pop "artists" do not care about there art as much as classical composers do. Most pop "artists" are really only in it for the money. I'm not saying they don't enjoy the music and that they suck but they don't seem to have a genuine interest in bringing there art form to the same level that classical music as risen.

Pop music is in its infancy but because so many pop artists don't really give a shit(as compared to classical composers who lived and breathed the stuff) the artistic aspect actually suffers.

Only knowing 3 chords or because" it sounds" good not a good enough excuse. Why limit yourself because you too lazy to learn or expand your horizons? If it sounds good with 3 chords just think how it would sound if you knew 4 chords? Sure you might still choose to use those 3 chords but then you made an artistic decision based on what worked best and not because you were to lazy to learn the 4th chord. Its one thing to be choosy and another to be limited.

Most contemporary genres now days don't seem to have any drive to improve there art. The average person has such a limited attention span and limit musical understanding that if you took one hit song and transposed it people would think its a new song.

I mean, come on. Lets be honest here. I don't think anyone says complex is better but there is something to appreciate in being true to the cause. Is pop music really about the music? Mostly not. Is rap really about the music? mostly not. Can you say the same thing about classical?

The reason why it doesn't grow is because the people who listen to it don't expect it to. Thats a disgusting excuse IMO. And now look what has happened. Music has become just another method of making money.

(And no, I don't think all pop is bad. I just see that it isn't going anywhere and has become way to commercialized by corporate america)

The reason why it doesn't grow is because the people who listen to it don't expect it to. Thats a disgusting excuse IMO.

How condescending! Most people don't want to sit there analysing their music. Music is entertainment as much as it is art, or at least it should be.

Pop entertains people. It can do more than that but that's primarily what it's for and it's good at doing that. If people want a deeper musical experience then classical is probably more suited, but many people don't. And who's to criticise them for that?

The problem is some people do want to listen to classical music but don't know how to appraoch it.

Many people seem to find the whole notion of "classical music" really scary. It's pulling down the barriers (and as I keep saying this is best done at a young age) that will prevent further ghettoisation of classical music, not being patronising about people's tastes or generalising about pop music.

Originally Posted by gianluca

...The notion that pop music is musically inferior to classical music in many respects, doesn't exclude the fact that there are a few pop artists and bands out there showing genuine musical creativity in their songs. I personally, however, find this supposed creativity in pop music still a farce when compared to the creativity shown by the great classical composers.

All you're proving is your (unfounded) bias against pop, and towards classical. Open your ears, dig into the music. Also, there's just as much shitty and shallow classical music being produced these days. It's a matter of experience, knowledge and familiarity.

You're familiar with the workings of classical music, and are applying these principles to evaluate 'worth' in pop music. You're not looking for the right things, because there's a richness and profundity in much pop music - your ears just aren't tuned to find it.

Originally Posted by gianluca

I mean, compare the creativity it takes to make an album like Ok Computer to the creativity it takes to compose a St. Matthew's Passion or a Mahler symphony - it's a no-brainer that the former is not a patch on the latter.

Don't ask me that, because (for me) it's not a no-brainer. I think there's considerably more creativity behind (specifically) OK Computer [easily on of my picks for top 10 music albums of all time] rather than Bach, or Mahler...

Please bear in mind that I'm coming from a drastically different perspective than you.

Originally Posted by gianluca

Oh and Niku, those examples you give – Gregorian Chant and Indian classical music (but note that I am mainly talking about Western classical music) – are not good examples to refute my assumption that classical music is richer, more complex and more refined than pop music. First, Gregorian chant has a melodic richness and melodic sophistication not to be found in most western pop music –just study any of the more florid gregorian melodies and you’ll probably agree that these melodies can be considered the most perfect, most convincing one-line compositions ever conceived. Indian classical music also has a rhythmic, melodic and formal richness and refinement that makes all rap music seem like a joke

Thank you for this response, because now I see that my text could be interpreted like that. I was certainly not drawing a parallel between those types of music and pop music, but rather illustrating that the complexity in different kinds of music lies in very different aspects. Most kinds of music are extremely simple in some aspects and very complex in others. One of my teachers once told me about an exchange they had with Indian music students. He listened to Indian music which sometimes uses many timbre changes within one istrument as musical ideas (while continously playing 1 tone), which at first he found quite boring to listen to. The Indian musicians found a Beethoven symphony extremely boring, but this is because they have almost no harmonic feeling and were actually listening to the rythm in the timpani... which offcourse is not THAT interesting.

Saying that one genre of music is per definition more complex than another is by my opinion short-sighted. I mean, it also depends on your personality and your hearing what you like. I am extremely sensitive to harmony and that is why I like Romantic and later classical music very much. But if you're more sensitive to text and rythm, then pop music could be more your thing.