I hate pop music

Well, Gianluca, you certainly burst onto the YC scene with a bang, didn't you.

Most new members post a few "hi, I'm Bob, I liked your piece" posts before posting inflammatory essays on the relative merits of unrelated musical genres.


Well, just so you know, welcome to YC.
Hopefully this thread isn't an indication of all of your future posts?

Originally Posted by nikolas

But you are still discussing about complexity in classsical music and simplisity in pop music, while you said (unless mistaken, cause I'm on a really slow connection these days and can't look back) that it doesn't make difference if it's complex or not and gave examples about Schubert actually! You are contradicting yourself exactly to that point: you need to decide if more complex music makes "better music" or not. You do need to read more carefully to what the rest of the people say in here (including my own posts), I think

No, I said that at times, I can enjoy a Schubert ländler or even a Beatles song, but the greatest music for me is music that has this deep intellectual and emotional refinement and profoundness, which I believe is almost exclusively found in classical music.

Originally Posted by nikolas

And you still compare Radiohead to Bach Beethoven and the rest: WHY?!?!?!??? Are they not different? Does it matter in the end if one is "better" than the other, and why should Radiohead be more advanced, refined and sophisticated than classical music anyways? I feel tons more challenged by Radiohead than I've done for most contemporary music I've heard in the past 4 years... go figure I guess...

Why am I comparing them in the first place? Because someone mentioned Radiohead as an example of good pop music. I am trying to explain that for me, their musical invention and creativity is not on the same level as Bach's or Beethoven's. Does it matter in the end if one is "better"? It matters for my argument that classical music has an underrated cultural status. So much talent is involved in classical music, from composers to conductors to musicians, and there's so much refinement, profoundness, richness and satisfaction to be found in this music yet 99% of the population (if not more) doesn't care a damn about it.

Originally Posted by Qccowboy

Well, Gianluca, you certainly burst onto the YC scene with a bang, didn't you.

Most new members post a few "hi, I'm Bob, I liked your piece" posts before posting inflammatory essays on the relative merits of unrelated musical genres.


Well, just so you know, welcome to YC.
Hopefully this thread isn't an indication of all of your future posts?

Thanks for giving me such a hearty welcome... I'm just trying to stir up some discussion, that's what discussion boards are for, aren't they?

So... Does it matter if it's "better" or not? more "complex" or not? Do you really see my point? More complex music = better music ? I hardly believe that really. But you seem to do so, was it not for the Schubert comment.

BTW, why is the fault of pop music that contemproary classical music is suffering greatly? Do you think that if Britney was not around people would value more Stockhausen? Or ligeti? Or Boulez? Cause I really don't...

I will strongly stand by my simple comment: Classical music is at fault for what is happening to it (with Classic FM and all rubbish surounding it) and contemporary music is suffering from autism. Simple comments that are in the heart of what bothers you!


Really. Pop and classical are SO hugely different... They simply don't appeal to teh same audience 90% of the times! For that 10% I would say that maybe you have a point, but if 99% does not care about classical it's the fault of the musicians, the conductors, the stars and the composers and not of the audience, nor of the "simplistic" pop songs.

PS1. Do you usually compare mellons with oranges? Which is "better"? And if so, is it the fault of the bannana that the mellons don't sell?

PS2. Of course welcome. You do see that I'm enjoying the discussion, right?

PS3. You have "in quotes" your own reply, which I missed apparently when writing this post. Keep it in mind please

All aboard the fail boat (the original post)

Originally Posted by nikolas

BTW, why is the fault of pop music that contemproary classical music is suffering greatly? Do you think that if Britney was not around people would value more Stockhausen? Or ligeti? Or Boulez? Cause I really don't...

You've completely hit the nail on the head here. Gianluca's essay really boils down to two things:

1) He doesn't like pop music.

That's fine, we all have opinions and your reasons are valid enough. I have no argument with your not liking pop, that's up to you.

2) Pop music is the cause of a decline in classical music

This is the point I disagree with and the point that is so contentious in your argument. Nobody cares if you don't like pop music and pretty much everyone will agree that classical music and musicians probably deserve better than certain talentless miming pop singers who earn huge amounts of money. It's your linking of these two things as though they are cause and effect that's causing controversy in this thread.

I have sympathy with your argument that many musicians deserve better (though this is not necessarily something new; Mozart, after all died a pauper) but we musn't use pop music as an easy scapegoat for the problems that exist. Nikolas has already suggested some possible causes for the problems:

Originally Posted by nikolas

if 99% does not care about classical it's the fault of the musicians, the conductors, the stars and the composers and not of the audience, nor of the "simplistic" pop songs.

And I would add to that, once again (as I feel it's very important) it's the fault of our schools! Expose kids to classical music. Don't neceassarily hold it up as a beacon of perfection but at least give them a chance to hear what's out there!! This is so important.

Incidentley, I read this rather convieniently timed pieces of news in my paper today which kind of sums up what I've been saying:

Barenboim returns with warning on music lessons - Independent Online Edition > News

----

So Gianluca, I don't care that you don't like pop music, but I'd suggest you look elsewhere for the problems in the classical world. Scapegoating pop is an easy thing to do but it won't solve anything at all.

Originally Posted by gianluca

Read more carefully what I said. I never said that all classical music is superior to (or more complicated than) all pop music. Besides, I have already stated that I agree that there is some good (maybe even great) pop music out there, but that this music can only be considered good or great compared to other pop music.

Then WHY was this thread started??

Your argument is getting weaker- you started out by saying that you hated pop music, and now you claim that you hate most pop music.

Originally Posted by gianluca

Alan, your calling me a snob to me seems like a sign of argumentative weakness...

Whoa, whoa! Hold your horses there! While that may be the most reasonable assumption on that comment, weakness is not what motivated me to say that. The fact is, your statements only tells me that. That's what I meant when I said that. And it's the main reason that I have found that really tells me that you hate pop music.
In otherwords, I was talking to myself.

Originally Posted by gianluca

... in my opinion their creativity pales in comparison to the creativity evident in the truly great masterpieces of classical music.

Fair enough...opinions are allowed around here.

Originally Posted by gianluca

Sorry, but you simply can’t put Radiohead on the same level as Bach or Beethoven in terms of musical creativity and genius, that would be a joke.

Sorry, but I can. And I do, and I'm very serious about it. There's many artists I rate significantly higher that Bach or Beethoven in terms of creativity...

Again, I'm coming from a vastly different perspective....

Originally Posted by gianluca

Thanks for giving me such a hearty welcome... I'm just trying to stir up some discussion, that's what discussion boards are for, aren't they?

I have lost all my affinity for you...

Originally Posted by robinjessome

Fair enough...opinions are allowed around here.




Sorry, but I can. And I do, and I'm very serious about it. There's many artists I rate significantly higher that Bach or Beethoven in terms of creativity...

Again, I'm coming from a vastly different perspective....

I come from a vastly different perspective than you; but I agree. Only the pathetic will feel that their heroes are objectively better than anyone else. As THe Emperor said, "Good is a point of view".

Personally, I feel that Mozart, Bach, Schubert, Haydn, Brahms, Handel and Tchai, are all very dry.

Furthermore, I feel that refinement and elegance is the opposite of depth...brilliance is a high-spinning thing, the opposite of primalness.