I hate pop music

I can't possibly imagine someone saying Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony is dry, or his violin concerto.

Sure, I'm annoyed at the overwhelming dominance of pop music today - but I think the classical recording industry is in no small part to blame for that. We really don't need to hear every single violinist in the world recording the Beethoven violin concerto, and yet that's what the recording labels tend to give us. No wonder so many people find classical music "boring" - we pretty much have the same 200 or so pieces shoved at us over and over and over. And most of those fall into the "relaxing music" category, because that's what the suits in the boardrooms think we want.

There's a lot of good music out there that doesn't get recorded nearly as frequently, and that's what we should be trying to record. It definitely works as a business model: there's a reason why business is booming for Naxos while most of the other classical labels are struggling.

I also would sometimes rate Radiohead's work as good as or maybe even better than Bach or Beethoven.

Originally Posted by Wagner

Furthermore, I feel that refinement and elegance is the opposite of depth...brilliance is a high-spinning thing, the opposite of primalness.

Hmmmm, not so sure whether I agree with you here. Pieces can be both brilliant AND elegant, although maybe this is not always the case. But what else should I expect from somebody with the nickname "Wagner"??

I don't agree with the initial post, and my opinion has been said somewhat.

I'm for the music, I don't care if it's Avril Lavigne or Bach. I've walked out of a Tchaikovsky symphony concert because I was falling asleep, and I certainly don't retain a lot of the junk on the radio for more than four seconds after hearing it.

But that's just me.

To me it's completely uninteresting the state of classical music in the world or whatever cultural crisis may be going on. If I can't hear the music I want to hear, I will write it myself.

There is no reason to put anything on any pedestals of great importance, and much less to badmouth music which may as well have inspired people even if it may seem idiotic or worthless.

I don't see much difference between people dancing to Chemical Brothers or feelin' the groove with Hendrix or rocking out with AC/DC or Rammstein, and people being moved to tears by Schnittke or Peteris Vasks, Bach or Brahms.

So long as it helps unearth a little bit of who we are, music, no matter in which format it may come in, will always prevail.

True, there is not one simple cause for the decline of classical music. There's a long list of factors that have contributed to this decline, ranging from music education, or rather lack thereof, to Classic-FM-like exploitation of classical music as pretty auditory wallpaper (as Nikolas pointed out) to the image problem of classical music today. Still, I'd say the immense, ever-increasing dominance of pop music is also one of the most important factors belonging to that list.

Another argument I've heard is that you cannot compare classical music to pop music, because they're too different -they're different traditions, they're made for different purposes, they use different aesthetics, etc. This may be so, but on the other hand, both genres also share the same basic fundaments: they both emerged as musical means of expression in the Western culture, they both make use of the same musical parameters - pitch, duration, timbre, dynamics, etc. -, they both use the same tonal building blocks (i.e., generally the notes of the equal temperament scales) and they both have the same conceptions of what constitutes the main dimensions of music - melody, harmony and rhythm -, therebye making it perfectly possible to compare both categories of music (or at least on those criteria that are relevant to both).

Fine if you think Mozart, Bach and Schubert (whom the real Wagner admired by the way) are dry (a painfully naive view if you ask me) or if you would rate Radiohead's work as good as or maybe even better than Bach or Beethoven. Undoubtedly, there are also people out there who would rate Britney Spears or Beyonce as musically talented as or maybe even more talented than Bach or Beethoven. To quote Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I personally believe that the level of musical depth and sophistication found in the greatest achievements by geniuses such as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler, Debussy, Stravinsky, etc. is not to be found in any pop music and I may only hope that this view continues to be shared by many other people.

heh...

There is one very HUGE difference between pop and concert hall music:

A. concert hall music (or classical if you like) is made for live performance almost exclusively (almost, although I've never seen any concert hall piece whose the composer, didn't have in mind how it would be played live, even in electronic pieces, or aleatoric, etc). This means that the concert hall pieces have some "attributes", like
i. sociality (a concert is a social event), which is hugely ipmortant
ii. interactivity between the audience and the performance! This, they are trying to extinct, but I can't admit it happening anytime soon or late!
iii. The chance of an error. We are being taught, as every performer, that the ideal performance is that of a CD! Totally wrong! Many pianists of the past, in the heat of the concert made many errors... Even orchestras. And I'm not talking about ignorance or irrisponsible performers but for real life simple errors, because of sweat etc.
iv. Almost all concert hall music needs to be playable! Ever seen a Sonata that cannot be played? (even so is it even 0.1% of the whole literature?)

on the contrary with pop music your starting point is almost exclusively... the media (tapes, vinyl, CD, DVD most recently). This means that:
i. No interactivity, no need of that
ii. no chance of an error
iii. same performance again and again
iv. listening to winamp is certainly not a social event!
v. No problem in having ANYTHING, no matter how weird or unplayble it is (imagine the aesthetics that can happen in this instance)

etc...

Apart from that (edited cause my kids hit enter)

It is obvious that all is opinion, but here we are discussing the reasons behind your opinion which is really interesting ! As I said I think that I kinda agree and especially after listening to some rubbish Greek pop music here, I can wholeheartily say that it was rubbish, alhtough many people think it is great art... I won't really talk about it to anyone here, but I can "safely" admit it with you and the whole of the public here! It was rubbish. But of course I'm comparing to British or US pop music (NIN, or Radiohead for example) and not classical music really...

And I would also urge myself to say that "foreign" music is not as successful here as it is outside of the country (in France, or other countries) and this is becasue we have many many Greek artists. So it does make sense in a way, what you're saying. I have to admit that!

but I'm still comparing pop with pop and commercial with commercial...

I'd say that, even if both are labeled music, they are hugely different and are coming from totally different perspectives.

Originally Posted by gianluca

To quote Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I personally believe that the level of musical depth and sophistication found in the greatest achievements by geniuses such as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler, Debussy, Stravinsky, etc. is not to be found in any pop music and I may only hope that this view continues to be shared by many other people.

This was unnecessary.

Originally Posted by gianluca

Fine if you think Mozart, Bach and Schubert (whom the real Wagner admired by the way) are dry (a painfully naive view if you ask me) or if you would rate Radiohead's work as good as or maybe even better than Bach or Beethoven. Undoubtedly, there are also people out there who would rate Britney Spears or Beyonce as musically talented as or maybe even more talented than Bach or Beethoven. To quote Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

Wow, what a bitchy was of reluctantly accepting that other people may have opinions. I'm sure Robin will be overjoyed at this response!

Originally Posted by SimonTerlecki

most classical music written is plain bad, but it doesn't survive the decades and centuries like the great stuff does so we don't see it as much.

I missed this for some reason. How long something lasts is no indication of its "quality" unless it's a car or something like that. Beethoven isn't "better*" than, say, Penderecki because his music lasted while music from his contemporaries didn't.

History is very selective, and the stuff that survives is because that stuff is/was popular. Not always the case, and indeed the whole thing is more to do with probability than with alleged "quality".

Thought I had to point this out, because it's a really common mistake apparently.

*Nevermind, YET AGAIN, that saying this or that music is "good" or "bad" is insane and gets us nowhere.

I beg to differ that complex music is good music, or simple music is poor music. It all boils down to the level of music intellect we all have. Individuals have different understanding and interpretations of music, and so do their definition of what is good and bad.


As to Pop music being the cause of the decline in popularity of Classical music, I again beg to differ. Lets just have an analogy. Fashion? Okay example, purple color is in season now. Does it mean that orange, which was in season last year, is unfashionable not BECAUSE of purple color?

NO! The purple color simply took over, as the case of Pop music taking over. It is the result, not the cause, and there can be no isolation of factors in that. Many which you and me do not know, afterall, I cannot probe into other's minds and dissect their music tastes.

well yeah this is all i have to say. =) I am a great pop fan and I also listen to tchaikovsky too, tho you might want to say I am more attracted to vocal music than erm instrumental music. =)