Lesson with Marsbars (General Composition, Literature, History)

Originally Posted by marsbars

I have a question. Let's say we have a melody a measure long, and the melody repeats itself while getting transposed down a semi-tone each measure. What would be the best strategy of harmonizing something like this?

Well, if you have a sequence like that you can simply transpose the previous harmonization, OR you can harmonize it new as if it modulated, etc. Depends on what notes, what melody, and so on. It's hard to tell without examples, but you can do a lot of things. You can even just use the same harmonization and let it become dissonant on purpose, and so on.

Speaking of which, if you're writing for winds, there are a couple of composers I want you to check out, the first one is Bohuslav Martinu, specially the madrigals for wind trio (oboe bassoon clarinet.) And the other is Jean Francaix who has written also a bunch of work for wind ensemble. I have a hunch they may be to your liking.

Say, if you gots stuff you can also show what you're working on. If you don't mind. If you haven't had time, that's fine too. But, uh, it'd be good if you kept me posted otherwise I can't be of much help. Just a reminder~

Sorry about this. I only have a few measures finished. (my dog ate my measures) I started working on a couple of other things and this has sort of drifted into the background. I suck at managing my time. Working on 3 different things on a single day is a monumental task in itself for me. This is embarrassing.

Funny thing is, what I have written has been sitting next to me on paper for the last 2 weeks. I just haven't been able to pick up a pencil. My time and energy has just been going in a thousand different directions lately. Time to get focused.

Here's what I have so far. I'm not so sure what's going on harmonically in the beginning. It's something like: V7 - I, V7 - I, V7 - I, getting transposed down each time and winding up on a C major chord.

Hm.

I like what you got, do you have anything planned for the structure? If there is any? What do you want to develop in terms of material? Rhythms? Motives? Dissonance or harmony?

Also, remember that these people need to breathe so large passages need to be broken up into phrases. You can use slurs here to indicate when to breathe, etc etc.

As for the harmony, well, don't worry too much about it unless you have a specific scheme you want to adhere to. You can do a chord-map for example, and have free-modulations through it as the structure of the piece. As an idea, anyways.

I get the vibe you're treating the oboe as a sort of "primary" instrument and the other two as accompaniment. There's nothing wrong with that, but remember that in these types of small ensembles you can hear clearly the other voices, so you may want to consider how you balance them differently.

But, it's not really bad how you have it. Maybe it can be interesting to mix it up a little later on in the piece.

You also clearly have a motive/theme at the start, with a pretty particular harmony. Are you going to use it again? After the C major chord at the end of the fragment you could as well work with that sort of "theme" some, with some variations rhythmically maybe.

Like I said, it's pretty nice what you have so far. But, try to think ahead of your writing. Where do you want to go with this? Do you have any sort of particular length in mind?

Originally Posted by SSC

Hm.

I like what you got, do you have anything planned for the structure? If there is any? What do you want to develop in terms of material? Rhythms? Motives? Dissonance or harmony?

Well, I'd like to develop all of those things. Wrote some more yesterday and came up with a little bassoon ostinato. I was thinking maybe I could develop this part while modulating back to the B -> E harmony while hinting at the beginning motive. Maybe I should just stick with the motive and develop it more and bring in the bassoon part later.

Prepare for a barrage of questions:

A question about pitch ranges: obviously the bassoon is going to stay at the bottom most of the time; what about the oboe and clarinet? Am I free to have them "cross" at any time? or should I swap voices only after a cadence? I also have a part where the upper voices play in unison briefly then break apart - valid?

Let's say we have a "suspended" chord, like a tonic chord with an altered third, and before we resolve the dissonance we move to another harmony like a IV chord or something. Where should that voice move to?

In all the textbooks I've read, a 7th chord usually resolves with the bass moving up a fourth. So what if we decided to go V7 IV or V7 VI, does the earth asplode?

Originally Posted by marsbars

Well, I'd like to develop all of those things. Wrote some more yesterday and came up with a little bassoon ostinato. I was thinking maybe I could develop this part while modulating back to the B -> E harmony while hinting at the beginning motive. Maybe I should just stick with the motive and develop it more and bring in the bassoon part later.

Prepare for a barrage of questions:

A question about pitch ranges: obviously the bassoon is going to stay at the bottom most of the time; what about the oboe and clarinet? Am I free to have them "cross" at any time? or should I swap voices only after a cadence? I also have a part where the upper voices play in unison briefly then break apart - valid?

Let's say we have a "suspended" chord, like a tonic chord with an altered third, and before we resolve the dissonance we move to another harmony like a IV chord or something. Where should that voice move to?

In all the textbooks I've read, a 7th chord usually resolves with the bass moving up a fourth. So what if we decided to go V7 IV or V7 VI, does the earth asplode?

Well! Naturally, we're not working with any specific "style" in mind at least that I can see, so you're free to do whatever you think is cooler. However, I totally would recommend a couple of things to consider regarding your questions:

The ranges for the bassoon are usually hard to describe, since you can also take the Bassoon quite high (Stravinsky's Rite of spring's beginning is played on bassoon.) But you have to know how to approach those notes (prepare them, use step motion, etc. Don't just jump to a high C, for example.)

You can quite literally cross voices with the clarinet and the bassoon for all intents and purposes. It's worth noting though that, again, the ranges if they're too extreme have to be done carefully. As for the Oboe and the Clarinet, it depends what you're doing with the instruments. If you're having a voice serve as accompaniment, crossing voices with it would render that pointless. Though, you can also bypass that with dynamics (the crossing voice is highlighted by a louder dynamic, the accompaniment voices being softer.)

You can also play unisons pretty neatly in the Oboe and the Clarinet, remember that both instruments don't sound alike and that sort of doubling just has a different sort of quality than if you had two of the same instruments do a unison.

Well, with chord sequences and harmony, keep in mind that you can literally grab any note from a chord as the basis or leading note to the next, specially if you're going to modulate and want to work in some chromatics. In terms of resolving a V7 chord, by the norm the 7th always moves to 3rd of the tonic (I), but if you want to spice things up, you can have that as a chromatic to all sorts of things.

Also, you don't NEED to resolve any suspensions, specially not in any traditional way. The 4th suspension goes to 3 and that the 9th to 8 is very text-bookish. Remember also that you're free to do parallel 5ths and 8ths anytime you feel like it. It depends on what kind of effect you want to get. Work with that in mind.

In other words, try to let the harmony choices if using a system be tools, not guidelines.

There's nothing wrong with doing V7 -> VI, or any such variations. It really depends on you wanting that or not. Try stuff out, see how you like it.

As for the form, maybe you can work a little more rhythmic contrasts in there somewhere for a contrast section? Or something like a variation of the beginning. Remember also there's absolutely nothing wrong with using any sort of different composition techniques mid-piece, like 12 tone, clusters, and all these things. It's only a matter of wanting to or not.

One of the things you should be aware of though, is not to bring new things in all the time. A typical error is unconsciously stuffing a piece full of material that gets discarded just as quickly as it shows up. You have so far a lot of stuff with the bits you showed, you can with that write the entire piece if you wanted. Don't think that contrast and such require always bringing new material.

By material I mean motives, rhythmics, harmonies, and so on. If you do introduce something new, try to work with it and don't let it become just a passing afterthought.

But! But but but, by all means, if your intention is otherwise, there's nothing wrong with that either. It must be conscious however, and not because you couldn't otherwise, that's all I'm saying.

I wrote another 12 measures or so, added some slurs, and tweaked a couple of things.

I'm hoping to make this piece at least 4 minutes long; a real mountain to climb at this point. I've been thinking more and more about structure lately. I'm going to try to link back to the beginning motive(in a different key) and see where that takes me. Maybe something like ABABCA form will suit this piece. I also want to move into some more outlandish harmony without losing coherence. I still feel as if I am not "pacing" myself properly as far as stretching the material. Although the "pileup" effect that occurs when introducing new material too quickly is something I'm growing more conscience of. (not to say it can't be used for a certain effect)

Oh, and thank you for clearing up all those questions and everything you're doing so far. Looks like you have your hands full.

Originally Posted by marsbars

I wrote another 12 measures or so, added some slurs, and tweaked a couple of things.

I'm hoping to make this piece at least 4 minutes long; a real mountain to climb at this point. I've been thinking more and more about structure lately. I'm going to try to link back to the beginning motive(in a different key) and see where that takes me. Maybe something like ABABCA form will suit this piece. I also want to move into some more outlandish harmony without losing coherence. I still feel as if I am not "pacing" myself properly as far as stretching the material. Although the "pileup" effect that occurs when introducing new material too quickly is something I'm growing more conscience of. (not to say it can't be used for a certain effect)

Oh, and thank you for clearing up all those questions and everything you're doing so far. Looks like you have your hands full.

Well, so far so good, but! If I may, I suggest that you space out your variations a little more. You don't need to run through the entire piece even if you start fast. Though I don't necessarily mean tempo contrasts, note durations and the general rhythm can be variable.

Thing is, what you're doing is spilling all sorts of musical ideas into the score, when you have quite a bunch just with the first 10 measures. Remember the exercises we did with variations?

Another important thing is, don't worry about length now. You're not writing with a specific classical form and it's OK to start with short pieces. The deal is, writing short things is not necessarily easy just because the duration is short. Take for example lieder from Schumann or Schubert, which are generally short. They're very compact and packed full of very complicated harmony and such things, yet very short.

There's a thing about short pieces which you have to consider. It's not that "the goal" is to write something long, but instead the "goal" is to write something that fits what you want to do and the amount of material you invested. You can build an entire symphony out of a 4 note motive, likewise, you can do a 1 minute piece with 800 different motives.

And another thing is that the shorter the duration, the more effective the usage of your material needs to be. You don't have time to develop or linger on repetitions, so everything must be pretty snappy and coherent on the first listen (though this can vary, if your intention is otherwise.)

Now, 4 minutes isn't long exactly, but you need to plan what you do a little more. Generally, a lot of pieces have repetitions, and such other things that add to the length. But they're not without reason.

So, let's go a little over planning.

Since you have your first "theme" there, which I think is pretty nice and catchy, you should probably return to it soon. Changing "key" isn't so important, as it is actually coming back to it. I think more interesting than changing key, is a different harmonization perhaps.

So, you can split the piece into sections where, for example, your main theme shows up. Unless you introduce another one, that is. This works as sort of setting up "check points" along a duration of time. For example, say you have 5 variations of your theme, which you want to go through before the end. You have a measure now as to how to space your piece so that all 5 show up before the end. Plus add in different bridge/contrast sections, and you got something of a plan already.

But that's just one idea, there's no real "right" way to do it, but setting checkpoints for yourself is a good strategy if you have a specific duration in mind you want to shoot for. You also could follow one of the classical simple forms in some way or another, such as ABA form, though loosely. Remember, using material from other periods is fine and dandy, you don't necessarily need to use them just as they were back then either. That's the whole gist of neoromantic/postmodern/etc styles. Just take what you find useful and do what you want with it.

Also, another thing that may help is not writing the piece from "start to finish" literally, but jumping around. Write your ending, write your middle section, jump to whatever you think you have ideas for. It's of course a different approach with its own challenges, but sometimes it's a pretty good method if you're stuck writing "start to finish" but have ideas for what comes after. Also where the checkpoint method is useful since you can coordinate your writing with the checkpoints so you can control the coherent "whole" of the piece even if you're jumping around.

Back to the duration, don't put so much emphasis on how long a piece is. It's good if you have a set duration in mind, but changing your mind isn't illegal. Remember also that many classical forms are sectional, as in you have movements. Though, you may or may not want movements, but it's something to consider. You can maybe do four 1 minute pieces, for example! Doesn't mean they have to be entirely different, but it may help organize your ideas better while keeping your overall "duration" for the entire work within your goal limit.

To what you have, like I said, try to take material from your beginning as basis for variations, etc that come later. You don't HAVE to, but then again your variations can be very contrasting so as to not even seem like variations. It's up to you really. Though, I'm personally inclined to have a piece have a certain sense of "consequence", if you use a specific motive construction at the beginning, you probably should come back to it at some point even if it isn't a direct repetition or right out obvious that you did.

Also, there's the question of having a specific "climax" to the piece, and where to put it. But that's really something you have to define and see for yourself, since it can be an infinity of different things.

So, I hope this helps you organize your ideas better and continue to write it.

I wrote about 30 more measures; curious as to what you think.

I tried returning to the beginning motive but instead got this twisted variation that might turn out to be a climax. From here on I'm going to try to work off of the variation and maybe bring it down dynamically.