Longest symphony in the world - standard repertoire - only tonal

I'm glad mysterium wasn't ever performed, because the world would have apparently ended and I would therefore, have never been born!

If we're going to talk about Mahler... Adigietto from his 5th symphony is one my favourite works.

Originally Posted by almacg

I'm glad mysterium wasn't ever performed, because the world would have apparently ended and I would therefore, have never been born!

If we're going to talk about Mahler... Adagietto from his 5th symphony, is one my favourite works.

Adagietto! Hi Almacg...

I'm glad you brought that up! Listen to what Leonard Bernstein has to say: "The whole world has been swooning to this Adagietto by Mahler since the movie "Death in Venice" hit the silver screen - quote: Leonard Bernstein.

If you wonder who Luchino Visconti is who did the movie "Death in Venice".


"Gustav Mahler's Adagietto"

Leonard Bernstein describes the ambigious character of Mahler's "Adagietto" with its leaning appoggiaturas, creating an esoteric feeling of weightlessness! "What's the magic secret with this music?" asks Bernstein.

”Ambiguity!” he continues.

You see, all that preliminary wamping on the harp... is first of all syntactically vague.... We have no idea what beat we're on or what meter we're in! And already, that's one ambiguity!

What's more? This is setting up the key of the piece... F major, by suggesting its tonic triad! But only suggesting it, because the fundamental note, the root of that triad... "F" itself is missing! And only 2/3 of the triad is given to us. The "A" and the "C"... roaming through several octaves… that's true, but still only two different notes! So we're not really sure that our key is going to be F major.

The absence of this tonic makes us only possibly aware of F major... because the two notes we hear could turn out to be two thirds of a whole other triad... namely this one... A minor... automatically we're facing another ambiguity! Which of these keys are we in? A minor or F major?

And again... which of the two keys are we in?
As the 3 upbeats begin... we almost vote for A minor... because there's that "A" on that cello part, which is the lowest part! But no, it sneakily descends to "G"... and then to "F"... oh, it feels so good!
We're home! In F major!

But there still an unresolved tug at the heart... in that appoggiatura up here, in the melody... and when it resolves... we just melt away with the pleasure of fulfillment!


uploaded by Fred




From Leonard Bernstein's Harvard Lectures serie.

Thanks for directing me to the youtube clip.

About it's ambiguity; I have tried many a time to play the first part of the piece by ear on the piano, and yet to successfully replicate it, I have come close however! The timing is often very hard to grasp, let alone the harmonic progressions..!

Mahler often gets a lot of bad things levelled at him, but for this work alone we should forgive him! You can hear the influence this has had on modern music, as you mentioned before - without this work, many modern works and ideas would simply never have come into fruition.

In my opinion one of the best pieces ever written; the work of a genius!

I'll certainly have a listen to Mahler 3 at some point, thanks for the recommentdation.

Hi Alex! What a coincidence that your alias contains the name "Alma"!

Alma was the name of Mahler's wife. Alma Schindler Mahler

By the way, here is a youtube clip of his first symphony last movement!

Here at start of this very energetic finale of a young Mahler, you can clearly hear what the famous Dmitrij Schostakovich has used in his fifth symphony nr 5. Also a finale movement.
At exact 9:28 minutes into the Schosta symphony you can hear a typical Mahler sound!

Well! I love Schosta a lot... I'm not trying to throw shit on Shosta... it's just fun to hear how strong Mahler's influence has been!

Regards,

Fred

hehehe
ok, just out of curiosity, what to you makes that finale so Mahlerian?

Just seeing Lenny's face in that video I can assure you that he missed the point completely of that finale. It's a beautiful interpretation. Really. It's wrong. But beautiful. Bernstein didn't understand what Schostakowitch was saying there. At all.

But just so we know: how is that "mahler" to you?

Well Michel! One of the clearest traces of Mahlerian sound is exactly 9:28 minutes into the clip where Bernstein conducts!
I will of course find more examples ... now that I have persisted in stating that there is a clear connection between them.

It's Shosta's orchestration that sometimes is very Mahlerian!

I have listenened a lot to Mahler symphonies, and I know when I hear that special Gustav sound... so when I read that Leonard also had observed this, I felt it could be interesting to mention it!

One thought struck me! A person that has only listened a lot to Shosta, may not be able to hear what's Mahlerian, if he has not been diving deep into Gustav's world!

Fred

There is nothing more Mahlerian in that specific moment than there is anything Brahmsian or Wagnerian or Beetoven-ian.

I think you're going a tad off the deep end with your obsessive prattling on about Mahler. I love Bernstein as a conductor, but his vision of the Schostakowitch 5th is flawed. He sees the end as something glorious, as sunshine breaking through the clouds, as a triumphant, victorious ending. He misses the point completely.

So for someone to miss the point of this highly sarcastic and facetious symphony, I'm not sure I'd jump at every word he says regarding influences and whatnot in that music.

He possibly missed the point, but it's an incredibly moving rendition.

Originally Posted by almacg

He possibly missed the point, but it's an incredibly moving rendition.

That's is exactly the point. It's not MEANT to be "moving". It's meant to be profoundly disturbing. It should make you queezy. It shouldn't make tears of passion well up in your eyes. It should make you cringe.

This specific moment 9:28! Does not sound like Wagner, Brahms or Beethoven! This only shows that you have not listened enough to Gustav's symphonies!
The specific place sounds 100 % Mahler! Not Brahms, Wagner and absolutely not Beethoven!!

Of course! Shostakovich's 5th is fantastic, but that's not what I'm talking about!
It's the very special Mahler like orchestration!

There is a reason why Leonard Bernstein has stated that Dmitrij's music sounds best when he sounds most like Mahler!

You can't deny those words from Bernstein! He is after all one of the most important voices when speaking about Mahler's music!