Longest symphony in the world - standard repertoire - RODIN'S BUST

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

No, actually, you have an article that STATES that he was influenced by Mahler.

There is a difference between stating something and proving it.

What if he said it?

OK, then to clear up a misunderstanding: it largely depends on your definition of "influenced".

Debussy was influenced by Wagner. How so? Debussy despised, loathed, hated, reserved-a-special-place-in-hell, for all things Wagnerian. This "avoidance" ends up being an influence on the music of Debussy.

Besides which, any composer aware of those who came before him is "influenced" simply by having come in contact with those predecessors.

I don't believe that the music of Schostakowitch is in direct line harmonically from the music of Mahler.

In that sense, for example, the music of Richard Strauss is "influenced" by that of Wagner and Mahler. It actually has a direct harmonic link to their creative output.

So I guess my reaction to being told that Schostakowitch was "influenced by Mahler" comes from my refusing to see a non-existant harmonic link between the two.

The further statement that "schostakowitch sounded best when he was mahlerian" excarbated the issue further. I think that that is a petty and inaccurate statement. As was remarked by another: Schostakowitch sounded best when he sounded like himself.

Any composer who wrote symphonies after the time Mahler had lived, was in some sense influenced by Mahler. Mahler pushed the symphonic form to an extreme. Whether one admires or loathes what he did, one cannot help but be fascinated by his approach to the form.

In my opinion, this is the limit of Mahler's influence on the music of Schostkowitch. And just to be quite clear, a composer's own words are sometimes a window into his perception of his own creative force, but not necessarily a reflection of the truth of that perception. I have read some truly strange remarks made by great composers, regarding their artistic output. How they perceive their art, and its influence, and its antecedants. They are often quite far off the mark, being more preoccupied with downplaying their own unique contribution, and laying the credit at the foot of some previous composer they admired.

And in my opinion, if you limit yourself to thinking that Schosta sounded best when he was "mahlerian", then you are missing out on some of the most fantastic music of the 20th century. Those truly brilliant moments where Schosta was no one but himself. Unique. Inimitable. A great musical mind that is no mere reflection of someone else, but a truly unique and individual voice.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

OK, then to clear up a misunderstanding: it largely depends on your definition of "influenced".

True. Although, my wife and I were listening to the 11th symphony recently and we both commented that the trumpet calls in the first movement sounded rather "Mahler-ian". Of course that just may be the nature of trumpet calls...

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

Debussy despised, loathed, hated, reserved-a-special-place-in-hell, for all things Wagnerian.

I did not know that. Maybe that's why I like Debussy so much.

One should also not confuse passing superficial similarities with "influenced by". There is, yet again, a difference. Likewise, momentary stylistic quotes.

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Thanks Romanticist,

Finally someone that cares about facts...

The Mahler society in Vienna will assist us in sorting out the details!

Usually, when I start an investigation like the one I'm actually going to start, the administrators of where the thread is will delete the evidences! Just wait and see! (Ironic lol!)

Meaning that... when I'm about to get the real final facts, the page you are reading right now will be deleted just wait and see everybody!!

I want to add that I have listened a lot to Mahler's symphonies to know that some of the episodes in Schosta's symphonies are very Mahlerian indeed...!

Here is a little cold snack before the hot dishes arrive!

an episode from the famous Dmitrij Schostakowitsch biography by Solomon Volkow:

"Schostakowitsch hatte die ausssterbende Form der Symphonie wiederbelebt; für ihn war sie die ideale Form, Gefühle und Gedanken, die ihn bewegten, zum Ausdruck zu bringen. In der Fünften verarbeitete er auch die Einflüsse der Komponisten Strawinskij, Prokovfjew und vor allem Gustav Mahlers, um zu seinem eigenen, unnachahmlichen, individuellen Stil zu gelangen."

from "Die Memoiren des Dmitrij Schostakowitsch" - Every word in this biography was approved by the composer who also wrote his own signature in it! Amazon here.

Solomon Volkow

Hi Mahler and Schosta diggers!
Here is snack nr 2 from the famous Dmitrij Schostakovich biography, approved and signed by Dmitrij himself!

"Heute lässt mich Prokofjews Musik ziemlich kühl. Ich höre seine Werke ohne sonderliches Vergnügen. Am besten gefällt mir wohl seine Oper "Der Spieler", obwohl auch sie viele uberflüssige effektvolle Äußerlichkeiten enthält. In seinen Opern bringt Prokofjew häufig das Sujet dem Effekt zum Opfer. Sie können das im "Feurigen Engel" und "Krieg und Frieden" feststellen. Man hört und bleibt unberrührt. So empfinde ich es heute.
Früher was es anders. Aber das ist lange her. Und dann drängte meine Begeisterung fur Mahler selbst Strawinskij in den Hintergrund, erst recht natürlich Prokofjew.

For those who have difficulty understanding german: (here short english ver) :

DIMITRIJ SCHOSTAKOVICH speaking...:"Today! For me, the music of Prokoview actually leaves me quite indifferent. I don't listen to his music with much appreciation! Even though his Opera "The Player" contains a lot of extravagant materials!" He often sacrifices the theme in his operas by emphasizing on the effects! You can hear that in the "Fire Angel" and in "War and Peace". When I hear it, I'm just feel indifferent...! That's how I feel today! Earlier in my life, it was different... But, that was a long time ago! Those were the days when, in my big admiration for Mahler, sometimes, I would even push Stravinsky himself in the background...

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Thanks Romanticist,

Finally someone that cares about facts...

The Mahler society in Vienna will assist us in sorting out the details!

Usually, when I start an investigation like the one I'm actually going to start, the administrators of where the thread is will delete the evidences! Just wait and see! (Ironic lol!)

Meaning that... when I'm about to get the real final facts, the page you are reading right now will be deleted just wait and see everybody!!

I want to add that I have listened a lot to Mahler's symphonies to know that some of the episodes in Schosta's symphonies are very Mahlerian indeed...!

Here is a little cold snack before the hot dishes arrive!

an episode from the famous Dmitrij Schostakowitsch biography by Solomon Volkow:

"Schostakowitsch hatte die ausssterbende Form der Symphonie wiederbelebt; für ihn war sie die ideale Form, Gefühle und Gedanken, die ihn bewegten, zum Ausdruck zu bringen. In der Fünften verarbeitete er auch die Einflüsse der Komponisten Strawinskij, Prokovfjew und vor allem Gustav Mahlers, um zu seinem eigenen, unnachahmlichen, individuellen Stil zu gelangen."

from "Die Memoiren des Dmitrij Schostakowitsch" - Every word in this biography was approved by the composer who also wrote his own signature in it! Amazon here.

Solomon Volkow

Hi Mahler and Schosta diggers!
Here is snack nr 2 from the famous Dmitrij Schostakovich biography, approved and signed by Dmitrij himself!

"Heute lässt mich Prokofjews Musik ziemlich kühl. Ich höre seine Werke ohne sonderliches Vergnügen. Am besten gefällt mir wohl seine Oper "Der Spieler", obwohl auch sie viele uberflüssige effektvolle Äußerlichkeiten enthält. In seinen Opern bringt Prokofjew häufig das Sujet dem Effekt zum Opfer. Sie können das im "Feurigen Engel" und "Krieg und Frieden" feststellen. Man hört und bleibt unberrührt. So empfinde ich es heute.
Früher was es anders. Aber das ist lange her. Und dann drängte meine Begeisterung fur Mahler selbst Strawinskij in den Hintergrund, erst recht natürlich Prokofjew. Iwan Sollertinskij hat mir nachdrücklich klargemacht: Mahler und Prokofjew sind unvereinbar."

For those who have difficulty understanding Dimitrij Schostakovich's own words speaking german: (here short english ver)

DIMITRIJ SCHOSTAKOVICH speaking:

"Today! For me, the music of Prokoview actually leaves me quite indifferent. I don't listen to his music with much appreciation! Even though his Opera "The Player" even though it contains a lot of extravagant materials!" He often sacrifices the theme in his operas by emphasizing on the effects! You can hear that in the "Fire Angel" and in "War and Peace". When I hear it, I'm just feel indifferent...! That's how I feel today! Earlier in my life, it was different... But, that was a long time ago! Those were the days when, in my big admiration for Mahler, sometimes even would push Stravinsky himself in the background!

Which quote just goes to underscore my point in the first place.

I would say actually its the "Lord Of The Rings" Symphony by Howard Shore 3 Hours has anyone done more?

Originally Posted by FlorianLinckus

I would say actually its the "Lord Of The Rings" Symphony by Howard Shore 3 Hours has anyone done more?

You are right about going back to original subject of thread!

But still... according to the standard repertoire of orchestral works today...

"Gustav Mahler's 3rd symphony is the longest symphony in the world today!"

Originally Posted by FlorianLinckus

I would say actually its the "Lord Of The Rings" Symphony by Howard Shore 3 Hours has anyone done more?

the only problem with this particular Shore work, is it's not really a symphony in any sense of the word. It's just a big suite of excerpts from the filmscore. It has no real cohesion. I admire the filmscore he composed. However, the "symphony" is nothing more than 2 hours of excerpts from the soundtrack with no development, and nothing linking it all together except its position in the film.