Machine2

Originally Posted by manossg

Don't get me wrong. I am seriously digging your work. I also respect improvisation and spontaneous musical energy. But you don't seem to direct that energy where you want it to flow, so as to express your musical intention. You just draw across the staff. If I cannot understand. please explain.
I'd love it if an independent ensemble could perform this piece in a 'truthful' (to you) way, with such a notation, but I seriously doubt it. If it can be done. I am taught a precious lesson and we're both winners.

If you couldn't read music all those notes would just be drawings on the staff. You need people who UNDERSTAND the type of music in depth and are experianced. Does Bach have to come back from the grave and teach somone figured bass everytime they are looking at the originals?

You seem very confident of your notation methods. I've played the guitar for more than a dozen years and, reading, I feel like I have to follow the whims of a drummer along with the bling-blongs of an electronics person. Some of the things you might want to convey might seem to be apparent (for you), but some (actually) might be not. I tried to compare it with other works of yours (big ugly blues)...worlds apart...
Anyway, it's your approach, thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by TheMeaningofLIfe

If you couldn't read music all those notes would just be drawings on the staff. You need people who UNDERSTAND the type of music in depth and are experianced. Does Bach have to come back from the grave and teach somone figured bass everytime they are looking at the originals?

Ahem, can you clarify what exactly YOU understand from that? We're not talking about notes here. We're not talking about figured bass. What is YOUR experience from sheet music? Have you tried to read Xenakis' music? Penderecki? Probably not... But both of these masters made it a point to clarify what they meant, when they used graphs. Even when heavily ad libbing. Spare me your ignorance.

Well Robin!

I find it totally awesmoe (tpyos intended both! notice how I always used them )! A great piece of music and a great idea!

I have to ask many questions before I do give my feedback, or rather my impression, as I gather, you're not looking for feedback with this 4 year old piece, right?

Questions.
1. How did you work on the electronics and how did you perform them? From a CD?
2. How did you do the score? I can see the different font but the lines? I doubt they were done inside finale, right? Porbably a tablet? Or maybe a pen in a printed paper and a scanner? Most intriguied by that! EDIT: This will teach me to read posts more carefully: finale 2003 and MS paint! Problem solved

I have to say that in some pieces I've played and seen (Mano, for example, the concert for piano of Schnittke has certain places of such graphics notation, and it works, as you know ) have such notation and it simply works, if there are rehearsals and the playes know each other. I certainly see the point of such a notation method (although sometimes it is used as an excuse by classical, mainly, composers to write less, but this is NOT the case here!).

I like electronics and I love your music Robin. It's not something I hear every day, or something that I will put to my kids to listen, but it is certainly something that "communicated" to me...something. And the thing is that after your work I have a strong urge to go work on my own works, which is great!

EDIT 2: Further to the graphic notation to Mano:

There are times that musicians (especially jazz musicians) need nothing else than some waevy lines to start playing. Had he done different thickness in lines, or different angles, or different something else, the result would've been different, but not accurate every time. And that's the idea. You provide the signal for the performers to respond in the end. nothing more. You give them a role above a simple robot performing your work. While it's very difficult to explain in academia (I've tried and failed, thus I binned the piece completely for my PhD), still there are many valid reason and with this kind of mp3, I'm happy it turned out like this!

Props also to Robin (once more) for making a score!

Nikolas,

I understand your words. In Schnittke's concerto, the lines represent the pianist beating the sh*t out of the piano. I was listening to it yesterday and a friend commented it's as if the pianist uses his cat to violently clean the dust off the clavier and the cat fights back...but I digress...

What I want to say is that an independent ensemble could make anything out of such a score! I would read this (on the guitar), either as glissandi / pick slides w/ distortion, or as relentless cluster comping. Everything ad lib. I might use the line of the bass as a guideline, but, again, maybe not. That is not really a negative thing. I am just curious to hear what an independent ensemble would make out of this score.

That's food for thought and inspiration!

Originally Posted by nikolas

I find it totally awesmoe (tpyos intended)! A great piece of music and a great idea!

I have to ask many questions before I do give my feedback, or rather my impression, as I gather, you're not looking for feedback with this 4 year old piece, right?

Thanks for the kind words. Feedback, impressions whatever - I wanted to throw this out there, because it's actually quite similar to my recent writing - which (lookout manoss!) gets considerably more abstract...

Originally Posted by nikolas

Questions.
1. How did you work on the electronics and how did you perform them? From a CD?
2. How did you do the score? I can see the different font but the lines? I doubt they were done inside finale, right? Porbably a tablet? Or maybe a pen in a printed paper and a scanner? Most intriguied by that! EDIT: This will teach me to read posts more carefully: finale 2003 and MS paint! Problem solved

1. I was (and regretfully, still am) quite inexperienced with electronics. They were incorporated simply because I had someone who could play them. It was a simple, ancient machine - a percussive sine-wave trigger with many knobs to affect the sound - pitch, phase shifting, etc.... ...Duncan hit it with a drum stick.

2. Yeah, Microsoft Paint. Did the preliminary music stuff in Finale, and exported each page as a TIFF, and painted the rest on top. Crude but effective.

Originally Posted by nikolas

I like electronics and I love your music Robin. It's not something I hear every day, or something that I will put to my kids to listen, but it is certainly something that "communicated" to me...something. And the thing is that after your work I have a strong urge to go work on my own works, which is great!

Thanks again! It's to see how I've developed and come full-circle, and I'm glad that there's something valid in what I was doing back then.

Remember folks, the recording was performed off a different (similar) score. The players had only been given direction to improvise, nothing more. There was no graphical notation in the parts - it's not something I had even considered back then. I feel the piece will be even more effective now, where there's some indication of the improvisational direction. I will play it again (perhaps a turntablist would be an interesting electronic voice)...I'll let you know how it turns out...

Originally Posted by manossg

...an independent ensemble could make anything out of such a score! I would read this (on the guitar), either as glissandi / pick slides w/ distortion, or as relentless cluster comping. Everything ad lib.

And this is where you show inexperience with this type of improvisation. Hopefully you've got ears big enough to notice that, given the music that precedes the guitar entrance (second cue, page 1), relentless cluster clomping would be 'wrong'. The short, quick strokes and open space should lead you to play the exact opposite of anything relentless. Also, your ears would be your biggest asset - if (for some reason) the electronics and drums got wild and hectic right off the bat, you'd be perfectly fine to go nuts with your clusters and distortion glisses (but, if I'd wanted that, I'd have written it). It's all about context, and reacting to what's happening around you at that point in time.

Originally Posted by manossg

I am just curious to hear what an independent ensemble would make out of this score.

I don't think there's any way for any ensemble to come up with something very far removed from what I intended. The improvisation will obviously be different (I'd be quite upset if it wasn't), but the general contour and energy of the piece will always be quite similar.

Originally Posted by manossg

Ahem, can you clarify what exactly YOU understand from that? We're not talking about notes here. We're not talking about figured bass. What is YOUR experience from sheet music? Have you tried to read Xenakis' music? Penderecki? Probably not... But both of these masters made it a point to clarify what they meant, when they used graphs. Even when heavily ad libbing. Spare me your ignorance.

In free jazz its obviously energy markings. It doesn't matter what we are talking about. I was using the similie to show you that OBVIOUSLY if you have had no contact with a language you are not going to be able to speak it. When you first learned general notation did you know how all the notes on the scale? That was my point. I read music everyday of the week in band and on the weekends I compose. I really don't see how thats relavent. If you are doing something COMPLETLEY NEW to an entire music community you obviously need to include a guide and even then explain the symbols in depth. He's not doing that. It is pretty obvious that under the description of the tune it is FREE Jazz. This would entitle that you are going to play IMPROV music. Where they use funny symbols to show you what to do.

Originally Posted by robinjessome

I wanted to throw this out there, because it's actually quite similar to my recent writing - which (lookout manoss!) gets considerably more abstract...

And this is where you show inexperience with this type of improvisation. Hopefully you've got ears big enough to notice that, given the music that precedes the guitar entrance (second cue, page 1), relentless cluster clomping would be 'wrong'. The short, quick strokes and open space should lead you to play the exact opposite of anything relentless. Also, your ears would be your biggest asset - if (for some reason) the electronics and drums got wild and hectic right off the bat, you'd be perfectly fine to go nuts with your clusters and distortion glisses (but, if I'd wanted that, I'd have written it). It's all about context, and reacting to what's happening around you at that point in time.

I don't think there's any way for any ensemble to come up with something very far removed from what I intended. The improvisation will obviously be different (I'd be quite upset if it wasn't), but the general contour and energy of the piece will always be quite similar.

Yeah, clusters with the .mp3 file you provided might be an inappropriate choice, but if the electronics person and the drummer provided another context (which you don't specify as not being an option), it would be perfect. I adhere to the score, not the recording. The thin lines at that second cue could be soft staccato clusters at the high registers of the guitar or random, chaotic glissandi. Cluster extravaganzas would be very appropriate for the part after the mark "4". Really, how much interaction did you have with the musicians that performed it? Were they just given the score, or did you interact with them directly?

It is enough for me to know that you would have been specific if (and when) you wanted it. I also believe that the aspects of contour and energy would be reproduced with this score. If these are the aspects that interest you, you seem to succeed!

And, please, do post your recent works. I feel inspired and fascinated by your approach!

Originally Posted by TheMeaningofLIfe

In free jazz its obviously energy markings. It doesn't matter what we are talking about. I was using the similie to show you that OBVIOUSLY if you have had no contact with a language you are not going to be able to speak it. When you first learned general notation did you know how all the notes on the scale? That was my point. I read music everyday of the week in band and on the weekends I compose. I really don't see how thats relavent. If you are doing something COMPLETLEY NEW to an entire music community you obviously need to include a guide and even then explain the symbols in depth. He's not doing that. It is pretty obvious that under the description of the tune it is FREE Jazz. This would entitle that you are going to play IMPROV music. Where they use funny symbols to show you what to do.

Seems I completely misunderstood your intentions, man. Mea culpa. Thanks for clarifying!

Originally Posted by manossg

...how much interaction did you have with the musicians that performed it? Were they just given the score, or did you interact with them directly?

You're right - a very important aspect of this type of music is the conductor. Certainly at the time of recording minimal conduction would have been used, I really only cued major changes and entrances. I simply didn't know any better. Do you mean interaction in rehearsal? There was minimal time for that, a brief explanation of what was to happen; we likely had two run-throughs...

NOW, with much more experience in this, I've developed a whole non-verbal language of conduction and can (have) produce entire pieces on the spot - improviser as composer (I wrote a paper on it).

Ideally, the players would listen to (and watch) each other; but, a conductor can also help steer the direction of the music. If I were to perform this again, I'd still refrain from excessive conduction - I'd much rather hear the performers' individual interpretations.

It's a matter of faith and trust in your musicians.

Originally Posted by manossg

...please, do post your recent works. I feel inspired and fascinated by your approach!

I will, I'll try and put together scores for some of my new stuff - right now, they're illegible sketches, and individual parts...

For more on my newer stuff, check out my Creative Orchestra. The recent gig in Vancouver happened with one rehearsal (with half the band). Several completely improvised conductions, grid-based pieces, and cued event style works (not unlike Machine2). It worked because of the sheer musicality of the musicians involved - big ears, big eyes.

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