Modern Composition John Cage

Good art is honest

Originally Posted by LDunn

This is, possibly, a harsh, rather contrived boundary, but it does apply largely I would argue. Just like Tracey Emin's bed - your own un-made bed in the morning is not a piece of art, but hers is, because it was expressing a set of ideas to others through being placed in a certain context.

I see your point, but I make my bed every morning with the intention that it looks pleasing to the eye. I tidy my room so that it looks better. That is an expression so to speak of, but I do not make the claim to be an artist. I wash the dishes so they may look nice and clean, but is this art? I can only assume that the reason for calling washing the dishes art, would be to make a false claim to artistry. Simply put, if we lower artistic standards anyone can be an artist. John Cage in his own words; 'But if this is music, (referring to noise) then I could write it as well as you' (Must have been quoting a friend of his). That is entirely the point, music can't be written by just anybody, which is why it is an artistic expression. A sculpture or a painting cannot be produced by just anybody, which is why it is art. Art and music are abilities, and if you concede that noise is music or washing the dishes art, then art and music no longer need ability, and in my opinion this is an offensive notion to the people who actually spend their lives perfecting their abilities. It's the same as me claiming to be a novelist, by submitting a blank book (4'33''), or just writing scrambled jumbled nonsense (noise). To be honest, If I tried to claim that I was a novelist in this way, I would be laughed at. Frankly, I think its dishonest.

I am awaiting the first school report that says, 'he shows much artistic promise; yesterday he scribbled his name on a urinal'.

Originally Posted by almacg

Simply put, if we lower artistic standards anyone can be an artist.

Ahem,
THE HORROR! OH MY GOD WHAT EVER WILL WE DO IF OUR ARTISTS DON'T COME FROM AN ELITE TIGHT-ASS CIRCLE-JERK TRADITIONAL BACKGROUND?!?!?!?!?!?!?onequestionmarkoneone
*cough*

You discredit someone's status as an artist, and yours is brought into question as well. Keep that in mind, artist that defines "What is art" in his favor is only going to end up with a black eye to show for it. I hope that you don't actually go to modern art schools and talk about this shit. Or for that matter, anywhere.

PS: Bunch this with my other reply to your post in the repertoire forum.

Originally Posted by Gardener

Well, it can sound like Brahms 4, if the audience decides to play Brahms 4 during the concert. So really, if you're in the audience and it annoys you that it doesn't sound like Brahms 4, you're the one to blame!

One day I shall go to a performance of 4'33'' and sing Beethoven's fifth through it.

The point would be that if you want silence, the concert hall is not the place to get it.

Originally Posted by SSC

Ahem,
THE HORROR! OH MY GOD WHAT EVER WILL WE DO IF OUR ARTISTS DON'T COME FROM AN ELITE TIGHT-ASS CIRCLE-JERK TRADITIONAL BACKGROUND?!?!?!?!?!?!?onequestionmarkoneone
*cough*

You discredit someone's status as an artist, and yours is brought into question as well. Keep that in mind, artist that defines "What is art" in his favor is only going to end up with a black eye to show for it. I hope that you don't actually go to modern art schools and talk about this shit. Or for that matter, anywhere.

OH NO! I'm questioning our perceptions of art! Utter hippocrate. You love John Cage's work for it's ability to question, yet you question my ability to question. I'm entitled to question anything I want, and for you to try to make me shut up in such a pathetic attempt just shows that you don't actually follow John Cage's beliefs at all. *cough*

Wasn't one of 4'33'' redeeming features the fact that it stirred debate? Well I'm debating, and all you can do is to try to belittle me at every turn. What a poignant metaphor, somebody who supports anti-art telling someone who supports art to keep his childish trap shut.

Yawn....

Wait a minute...

You seem to be a incredibly well informed music teacher (?)... Why belittle yourself, by supporting 'composers' who have shortcutted the road to success by not actually bothering to learn form, structure etc, or indeed had any musical talent to begin with?

Originally Posted by almacg

OH NO! I'm questioning our perceptions of art! Utter hippocrate. You love John Cage's work for it's ability to question, yet you question my ability to question. I'm entitled to question anything I want, and for you to try to make me shut up in such a pathetic attempt just shows that you don't actually follow John Cage's beliefs at all. *cough*

.. eh? That was a quick reply, I suppose you didn't really think about what you wrote that hard, eh?

First off, you have no idea why I like Cage's work, nor have I actually talked about it. Second, what I'm saying is entirely based on the fact that an opinion like yours only discourages people from actually having the guts to try and become artists.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about what you think art is (you're just a dude on the interwebs). I'm simply pointing out that what you're saying simply isn't productive, practical, nor at any rate constructive.

I'd rather EVERYONE produce art, music, sculpture, anything at all. I don't care if people think washing dishes is art, so long as they try to get involved in a sort of artistic process, which is something so many people lack. A whole lot of people would benefit from having at least 1% of their lives dedicated to building something with their own hands. Regardless of skill, aesthetic, any of that.

It's not only psychologically healthy, it's also emotionally constructive. There's no secret there, it's not something I just pulled out of thin air.

I'm not going to deny anyone the chance to create what they think is art purely because I don't like what they have done. That's not how it works.

So, really? Try to spend a little more thought on what you answer, it makes you look silly if you don't.

PS: Oh god please post everything under ONE post, there's an edit button for a reason! And, to answer your question, I'm of the opinion that ALL MUSIC IS VALUABLE, no matter WHO wrote it, HOW they wrote it, or WHEN they wrote it. So long as a person was involved, or even if it was a machine, or even if it's a WASHING MACHINE, I think sound is fantastic. More so when people shape it to do things, or work with it in different ways, etc etc. I attempt to study and grasp every single composer, every single style, and every single epoch. I find it is my responsibility with the world, art, and every other person who has ever wanted to say anything through whatever means they could (music in this case.)

I hope that answers your question, as to why I "belittle" myself with composers such as Cage.

Originally Posted by SSC

.. eh? That was a quick reply, I suppose you didn't really think about what you wrote that hard, eh?

First off, you have no idea why I like Cage's work, nor have I actually talked about it. Second, what I'm saying is entirely based on the fact that an opinion like yours only discourages people from actually having the guts to try and become artists.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about what you think art is (you're just a dude on the interwebs). I'm simply pointing out that what you're saying simply isn't productive, practical, nor at any rate constructive.

I'd rather EVERYONE produce art, music, sculpture, anything at all. I don't care if people think washing dishes is art, so long as they try to get involved in a sort of artistic process, which is something so many people lack. A whole lot of people would benefit from having at least 1% of their lives dedicated to building something with their own hands. Regardless of skill, aesthetic, any of that.

It's not only psychologically healthy, it's also emotionally constructive. There's no secret there, it's not something I just pulled out of thin air.

I'm not going to deny anyone the chance to create what they think is art purely because I don't like what they have done. That's not how it works.

So, really? Try to spend a little more thought on what you answer, it makes you look silly if you don't.

Sorry, but the idea that Tracy Emin is regarded as a brilliant artist and has probably been made fairly wealthy due to the fact she didn't tidy her bed for 4 months, is utterly offensive to the artists who are actually artistically talented and may be struggling to put bread on the table.
Heard of penumbriationism? The art world is incredibly phoney... Edit: I spelled that wrong, I can't remember what it's actually called, but I was referring to the submission of purposefully bad pieces of art being accepted into an art gallery.

Originally Posted by almacg

Sorry, but the idea that Tracy Emin is regarded as a brilliant artist and has probably been made fairly wealthy due to the fact she didn't tidy her bed for 4 months, is utterly offensive to the artists who are actually artistically talented and may be struggling to put bread on the table.
Heard of penumbriationism? The art world is incredibly phoney...

Hah, well, I personally think a lot of the art world is nonsense, when it comes to money, exhibitions, etc. So, in a sense, I agree with you there. But! It still shouldn't discourage anyone to try to do what they can, or want.

Oh, btw, Cage DID study "proper" music as well. He was a student of both Cowell and Schoenberg, both very entrenched in classical theory, etc etc. He just opted to do different things.