Modern Composition John Cage

Originally Posted by Maxx

This is the dumbest thing I've heard (or didn't hear).

You know when I was 10 years old or maybe even younger I was thinking "heh imagine if I'd compose a piece entirely out of rests" and there we go someone did it... If I had the idea when I was 10 does that make me a good composer?

Please don't start. I have no patience for attitudes like that.

I don't care about how something was written (unless that is part of the artistic concept). I don't care about talent or skill. I care about the music.

I definitely care about the music too, but thankfully for me the music I enjoy the most took the most talent to write imo!

Robin I don't understand your lack of patience for an attitude that simply disagrees with you. Whether you like it or not, there are a hell of a lot of people who literally laugh at this kind of thing, and although I used to be one of them, I now find this kind of work depressing rather than hilarious.

If Cage has taught you to be open minded, you go about it in a very odd way - patronising anybody with a differing musical opinion. This is one of the essential problems with this kind of 'modern composition'. It's supposed to be about challenging our attitudes towards art, and tearing it free from the stronghold of the elite. Yet, as soon as somebody challenges Cage - which is essentially just somebody challenging the perceptions of art - suddenly the people supposedly advocating freedom of artistic expression act like they've got a rat up their ass. I'm worried by some of the attitudes modern artists have towards 'tried and true' art.
Most modern artists don't even practice what they preach, they've fooled themselves into thinking in a way that from my point of view is often ridiculous.
Maybe Cage did take years to come up with 4'33'' but despite this he simply wrote nothing. It is not the process but the result. If the result is nothing, then you have essentially failed to achieve anything that could not have been done by every single human being with the ability to write 'tacet' on the planet. Regardless of whether you see metaphor upon metaphor, you should simply remember the story of the naked emporer. If 4'33'' had been written by... my grandad, would you, or anybody have given it the time of day?

Please remember that I'm not trying to provoke a huge Cage vs Da Vinci war!!!, rather an honest discussion.

Originally Posted by almacg

Robin I don't understand your lack of patience for an attitude that simply disagrees with you. Whether you like it or not, there are a hell of a lot of people who literally laugh at this kind of thing...

If Cage has taught you to be open minded, you go about it in a very odd way - patronising anybody with a differing musical opinion. This is one of the essential problems with this kind of 'modern composition'. It's supposed to be about challenging our attitudes towards art

I have no problem with people disagreeing or disliking something. My problem is WHY they dislike it, and how they feel comfortable voicing ignorant opinions about things of which they have little/no understanding.

You guys don't like things that challenge your perception of art, and that's fair enough. I get a "rat up my ass" when people can't respect something simply because they dislike it.

I preach respect and openness...and I've explained my position numerous times.

Originally Posted by almacg

I definitely care about the music too, but thankfully for me the music I enjoy the most took the most talent to write imo!

Robin I don't understand your lack of patience for an attitude that simply disagrees with you. Whether you like it or not, there are a hell of a lot of people who literally laugh at this kind of thing, and although I used to be one of them, I now find this kind of work depressing rather than hilarious.

If Cage has taught you to be open minded, you go about it in a very odd way - patronising anybody with a differing musical opinion. This is one of the essential problems with this kind of 'modern composition'. It's supposed to be about challenging our attitudes towards art, and tearing it free from the stronghold of the elite. Yet, as soon as somebody challenges Cage - which is essentially just somebody challenging the perceptions of art - suddenly the people supposedly advocating freedom of artistic expression act like they've got a rat up their ass. I'm worried by some of the attitudes modern artists have towards 'tried and true' art.
Most modern artists don't even practice what they preach, they've fooled themselves into thinking in a way that from my point of view is often ridiculous.
Maybe Cage did take years to come up with 4'33'' but despite this he simply wrote nothing. It is not the process but the result. If the result is nothing, then you have essentially failed to achieve anything that could not have been done by every single human being with the ability to write 'tacet' on the planet. Regardless of whether you see metaphor upon metaphor, you should simply remember the story of the naked emporer. If 4'33'' had been written by... my grandad, would you, or anybody have given it the time of day?

Please remember that I'm not trying to provoke a huge Cage vs Da Vinci war!!!, rather an honest discussion.

Anyone could have invented the lightbulb, but that doesn't make Thomas Edison any less important, or any less intelligent, or any less inventive.

Originally Posted by almacg

If 4'33'' had been written by... my grandad, would you, or anybody have given it the time of day?

If your grandad had spent his entire life exploring the definition of music, how sound and music are intertwined, and how we as humans perceive "music", had your grandad spent the same amount of energy in writing his thoughts on the topic, in composing music that constantly applied everything with which he was experimenting, then yes, I'm sure I (and the rest of the musical establishment) would have given your grandad the same ovation for coming to the conclusions which John Cage did with 4'33".

However, your grandad didn't.
John Cage did.

Originally Posted by Jamie Whitmarsh

Anyone could have invented the lightbulb, but that doesn't make Thomas Edison any less important, or any less intelligent, or any less inventive.

*cough* Thomas Edison didn't invent the lightbulb.

I think the problem is, modern concepts, music, etc are very complicated to explain and understand. So, when people don't bother, it does seem that on the surface it's nonsense when in reality it's really not the case. Attitudes against Cage come pretty much from ignorance to the entire time period, intellectual discussions and so on. I have yet to meet anyone who actually knows about Cage, or any given 20th century musicology problems with any degree of accuracy that don't find it fascinating. There's so much there to explore and look at that dismissing it based on ignorance is exactly what I think Robin is getting at with the respect comment.

Respect means informing your ass before you make a comment. Respect means saying "I have no idea about what I'm going to say, so forgive me for my ignorant-ass comment" and respect means at the very least acknowledging that people spent their entire lives trying to answer questions that are of fundamental importance for everyone involved in music what so ever.

And the reason anyone who actually HAS any idea about Cage gets angry when such sweeping, ignorant ass comments are made is not because a difference in opinion, but the fact that people making such comments show no interest, knowledge, or respect about what they're talking about. Before attacking Cage or modern music, it'd be wise to know that all of it is in function of trying to solve problems and give us a better understanding of what music and sound really are.

Not just writing "pretty notes" or conforming to a popular standard, or aesthetic/style/trend.

I don't know how ANYONE can be opposed to Cage, unless they enjoy ignoring an entire century of intellectual reasoning, questioning, and advances that ultimately help the composer. This seems to be the case here entirely out of ignorance.

That's why it makes me mad, that's why it pisses off Robin, and that's why QCC comes out in defense of Cage and modern music despite the fact that neither of us are hard-core modernists or have any sort of nonsense up our asses.

There's no excuse for ignorance, and there's no excuse for opinions built on such ignorance.

Here here!
I agree whole-heartedly.

When I said 'rat up their asses' I wasn't referring to Robin or anyone on the forum, thought I'd made that clear but obviously not! Seriously, I've come across a lot of people who claim to be open minded about art, and who simply tell people to shut up when somebody speaks out against something. In my opinion that is really rude and incredibly narrow-minded.

Ok, my grandad didn't spend his life challenging the perceptions of art!

Right now, I'm talking about art right? I'm discussing it, I've studied some of John Cage's works at university and I spend lots of my time thinking about art. So what?! This is not a reflection of my artistic ability. I care about the outcome not the process! Maybe John Cage went on a spiritual journey, but essentially 4'33'' does not impress me at all. I find it slightly intriuging, but I'm so much more interested in works that speak for themselves.

Cage seems to have tried to marry philosophy and music. When I write a piece of music, I am not being a philosopher. When I am thinking about philosophy I am not being a composer! Music and philosophy are related, but they are two different entitities. We can philosophise about music, but this is not an act of writing music!

Originally Posted by almacg

Right now, I'm talking about art right? I'm discussing it, I've studied some of John Cage's works at university and I spend lots of my time thinking about art. ...essentially 4'33'' does not impress me at all. I find it slightly intriuging, but I'm so much more interested in works that speak for themselves.

A fair opinion. And you (Al) won't receive any backlash because you've put in the effort to learn and understand, and have presented your opinion without being derogatory and dismissive; you respect it, and can understand the implications of it, even though you dislike it.

Cats like Maxx here, bust in and stomp all over the place with ignorant statements like "This is the dumbest thing I've heard (or didn't hear)" which is insulting to people who work in this area of music/art and who understand it. They obviously know nothing of the genre, and likely don't care to.

So, I do get a rat up my ass, and unleash a little bitchyness. When that usually doesn't work, I then resort to simply ignoring the ignorant. Problem is, there's so damn many of them!!

........

BTW, Great post SSC.