Modern Composition John Cage

Originally Posted by robinjessome

A fair opinion. And you (Al) won't receive any backlash because you've put in the effort to learn and understand, and have presented your opinion without being derogatory and dismissive; you respect it, and can understand the implications of it, even though you dislike it.

Cats like Maxx here, bust in and stomp all over the place with ignorant statements like "This is the dumbest thing I've heard (or didn't hear)" which is insulting to people who work in this area of music/art and who understand it. They obviously know nothing of the genre, and likely don't care to.

So, I do get a rat up my ass, and unleash a little bitchyness. When that usually doesn't work, I then resort to simply ignoring the ignorant. Problem is, there's so damn many of them!!

........

BTW, Great post SSC.

Yes you're right! I don't think you should dismiss anything before you know what it is you're dismissing.

Touche.

Loved that reply, it summed up loads of things said in posts before but which no one paid any attention too.

I think the problem also lies in that, people asking questions like that (and in that manner - SimenN could have asked very politely for someone to explain to him why 4'33" is considered a piece of music or a piece of art; but he didn't) will also disregard anything said by people who support the kind of thing they don't understand, or don't want to understand. Otherwise, they would have rephrased their question.

Ignorance is not bad. We are all ignorant once, and there are many things of which we will be ignorant even when we die. However, it's the attitude to that ignorance that can be annoying or not. If someone is ignorant, and he acknowledges that, and he does want to learn more and is not afraid of what he might find out or encounter, that's a lot more different than someone being ignorant, and also ignorant of the fact that he is ignorant, and not wanting to leave that "zone of safety", the things that he knows and is familiar/comfortable with, that his ignorance provides (as opposed to the unknown, what makes him feel uncomfortable and thus try to avoid).

Here's some news: people who were afraid of the unknown never did anything in their lives. To the other extreme, people who conquered the unknown discovered America, set the foundation for nuclear physics, or set foot first on the moon.

Originally Posted by jujimufu

Here's some news: people who were afraid of the unknown never did anything in their lives. To the other extreme, people who conquered the unknown discovered America, set the foundation for nuclear physics, or set foot first on the moon.

That's not such a good example, wasn't America discovered by accident? XD

And people have known the moon for a while too... Just GOING there was a challenge. It's not like it was unknown in this sense. . .

BUT obviously your point stands, though I'd argue that people that perpetuate tradition are also important, for the sake of preserving history and having some reference. You need all sorts of people but what you don't need is irresponsibility regardless where it comes from.

So~

Originally Posted by SSC

That's not such a good example, wasn't America discovered by accident? XD

Yeah, but I think that's quite applicable to musical explorations too. You might set out for something completely different than you will find, but the fact that you do go out, accept risks and keep your eyes (or more musically: ears) open means that you have higher chances of "discovering america" than by staying in bed the whole day. (I'm reading "Oblomov" by Ivan Goncharov at the moment, by the way . Great book, pity I can't read it in Russian.)

Originally Posted by Gardener

Yeah, but I think that's quite applicable to musical explorations too. You might set out for something completely different than you will find, but the fact that you do go out, accept risks and keep your eyes (or more musically: ears) open means that you have higher chances of "discovering america" than by staying in bed the whole day. (I'm reading "Oblomov" by Ivan Goncharov at the moment, by the way . Great book, pity I can't read it in Russian.)

Well yeah, in that case sure it's a good example.

18 pages?

Jesus!

Let's examine one thing:

Have you ever seen anyone who is respected to go out and bash on anything? I'm sorry but I highly respect SSC, Gardener, QC, Robin, et al and I've never seen them make a thread like "let's piss on baroque", or anything to any extend about bashing.

I just don't get it.

If you like something you want to share the world, you want to let everyone know, educate, share the experience. when you don't like/understand something, why the fuck say it and make an 18 page long thread?

Alex, you've seen my opinion about Cage in vi. No reason to repeat things. And you've conducted a wondeful debate and discussion here. (not unlike vi really! ) cheers for that!

Originally Posted by nikolas

Alex, you've seen my opinion about Cage in vi. No reason to repeat things. And you've conducted a wondeful debate and discussion here. (not unlike vi really! ) cheers for that!

Yes I certainly don't want to repeat that little incident! The trouble is debating art can be tricky. Some people can all too often take things personally, and I suppose that isn't really their fault.

I've often come to the conclusion that telling people that you don't like something is a complete waste, but when it impacts your life in a certain way I feel you may aswell express yourself.

Originally Posted by Nirvana69

*cough* Thomas Edison didn't invent the lightbulb.

Yes he did.
Go check the wikip...
uh.
What were talking about again?

It's really quite unfortunate that most of the users of this forum cannot appreciate the work of John Cage. Not only is he one of the most important composers of the twentieth century, but he is one of the most influential composers in terms of notation. I challenge any user to find a composer who came after Cage who was not influenced in some way by his work, and moreover, find any piece making use of graphic notation where Cage doesn't pop his head out. 4'33" not only changed the face of music, as it introduced silence as one of the major components of any piece of music (and validating that space between movements in any work of music, from Bach to Shostakovich) and the use of rests in general, but we can thank Cage for changing the way we all look at art, whether or not some of us choose to acknowledge so.

As a sidenote: Silence has been always a fundamental building block in music, but it wasn't until Haydn (One of the later string quartets' end, with the pauses and repetitions) that it was treated as a functional musical element (though there are clear examples in baroque literature where silences were used to bring specific effects, etc etc.)