Modern Composition John Cage

Originally Posted by SimenN

haha, cage did nothing, NOTHING? de he write silence? no, what is this to understand? i do perfectly understand, but i dont see this as composition, not even as art, nothing i see this a way to make money, and people follow and aplaud.

A baby could have done the cage thing? no problem, you need no talent NO composition skills nothing to tell the orchestra, be quiet for 4, 33 minutes.

Silence is not new, you hear it everytime at a concerto, just before the orchestra starts to play. I could play in the cage orchestra, i have never played violin before, but it dont look that hard? and that is sick, that is my "narrowmidned blinded " opinion

The point is, you didn't.

You didn't THINK of it.

You didn't EXPRESS it philosophically.

Why don't you give it a rest?
What Cage did was a gesture, with a very deep and long thought out philosophical intent.

He HAS written music that is quite beautiful and lyrical. I know, I've performed some in the past. So the man DID have musical talent.

Your argument, and constant return on attacking this single work of musico-philosophical THOUGHT is getting annoying and is really pointless.

Did John Cage promote the idea that we should ALL be "writing" silence? No. He did it ONCE!!!! for crying out loud. It was a gesture, an event.

Unless you actually wish to discuss the philosophical implications of sound/silence in music, this thread is entirely pointless other than as "John Cage bashing".

well, for cage was into zen-budhism and mushrooms, i don't find it so extremely difficult to understand
plus, he comes to the audiences that widely are city people and throws something they might have already forgotten - an idea of the other world existing around them. there is something else to listen to - not just ''music''. it certainly a question of 'what is music?', but intentionally addressed to modern western man. in other cultures it would not be so much valid and strong. it would not strike people as it strikes modern western cultured man. that is - biting their self-indulged listening practice, which has become not-listening . it's as much philosophical as it is ironic.
and, of course, a step to publically share his views on impossibility of silence.
and, yes, maybe ask, even himself, is sound (and-what sound?) music then?
i certainly don't see it as an answer, but a question, which is the central stone of avant-garde thought in general. like duschamps 'pisuar'.

Hehe, mabye that is your point of view and i accept that, my question was at the start of the thread? is this art? and you say yes, i say no im sure the man is a good composer, but that 4,33 piece is not composition, and i dont think this way " woow what a genious he turned a concerto in to a 4,33 silence" great idea, i think this way, "what the hell is he doing? inviting to a concerto and have not written a note? this is not music and sure not composition, and they call it a piece, its not" just wanted to dicuss with you what you mean about that piece, he have other pieces like that too, one for piano, one note only " listen to the soundwaves".

All i say to do that "write music" without one single note or any sound, or one note and imagine the rest of the music, listen to the crowd "sneez" i dont see any music in that.

But you well know my opinoin, i wanted to know yours, but the thing that is bothering me is you allways need to insult me, i dont insult you. Discuss with the proper arguments and without insulting the other part, if you say? i dont like baroque, i dont like classical music i like Cage, and i dont consider the old music as art anymore, well i say i dont, but id never call you narrowminded stupid etc.

Originally Posted by SimenN

Hehe, mabye that is your point of view and i accept that, my question was at the start of the thread? is this art? and you say yes, i say no im sure the man is a good composer, but that 4,33 piece is not composition, and i dont think this way " woow what a genious he turned a concerto in to a 4,33 silence" great idea, i think this way, "what the hell is he doing? inviting to a concerto and have not written a note? this is not music and sure not composition, and they call it a piece, its not" just wanted to dicuss with you what you mean about that piece, he have other pieces like that too, one for piano, one note only " listen to the soundwaves".

All i say to do that "write music" without one single note or any sound, or one note and imagine the rest of the music, listen to the crowd "sneez" i dont see any music in that.

But you well know my opinoin, i wanted to know yours, but the thing that is bothering me is you allways need to insult me, i dont insult you. Discuss with the proper arguments and without insulting the other part, if you say? i dont like baroque, i dont like classical music i like Cage, and i dont consider the old music as art anymore, well i say i dont, but id never call you narrowminded stupid etc.

Are you doing it on purpose to be dense?
Are you going out of your way not to understand?
"Narrowminded" describes perfectly well your approach to this whole discussion.
You refuse to acknowledge that John Cage made a contribution to musicological thought through the gesture he posed with 4'33", by continually applying YOUR standards af "it needs this element to be officially recognized as music".
THAT is the purest definition of "narrowmindedness".

I will defend to the death your right to compose in a style, and limiting yourself to the harmony, of a period now gone 300 years.

However, if you want anyone to accept your music, you have to accept that musical thought has expanded beyond the bounds to which you are limiting yourself.

No one, least of all John Cage, is saying that 4'33" is a "piece of music". I really, REALLY don't see why you are so tirelessly launching this attack against a piece that had great significance in 20th century thought regarding music.

No one who went to the concert where 4'33" was presented was expecting a concert of baroque and classical music. So no, no one would have been insulted or upset that the pianist walked out onto the stage and did nothing for four minutes and thirty three seconds. The audience would have KNOWN that Cage is an avant-garde thinker. They would have read the programme notes. They would have understood what it was he was trying to bring up as a point about music/silence.

It is not your place to be insulted and offended that someone "performed" a work of "music" that actually contained no notes. Really. It's not.

If you don't understand the gesture, then that's your loss. With every word you write regarding this issue, you clearly demonstrate that you are in absolutely no position to even discuss the very concepts that Cage was exploring.

You are as narrow-minded as the avant-gardistes who reject anything that is remotely tonal.

Isn't it of more concern to you that the two opposite sides of the same coin ("period" composers such as yourself, and avant-garde composers such as a few on this forum who will remain nameless) are both so completely inward-turned that they reject everything in between as well?

I can't put it any more clearly: you and your fellow baroque revivalists are as wrong as the avant-garde extremists in your rejections of everything that is not "you.

There is great, nay.. tremendous! music composed after the baroque and classical periods. Right up to this very day, there is great music being written.

If you are incapable of appreciating it, then do NOT lay the fault on the music or its creator. Lay the fault where it belongs: with your own lack of comprehension.

There is great, nay.. tremendous! music composed after the baroque and classical periods. Right up to this very day, there is great music being written.

Yes i know do that ? dont i ? i have said it before, i dont just like baroque and classical, i like chopin , schubert , schumann, lizst , john williams, hans zimmer ++ +++

but i dont like them as much as bach and mozart, you know this ? and i dont like this Cage dude, and that is my opinon!

"You are as narrow-minded as the avant-gardistes who reject anything that is remotely tonal", thank you.

"I can't put it any more clearly: you and your fellow baroque revivalists are as wrong as the avant-garde extremists in your rejections of everything that is not "you."
thank you for that to!, you could not stop with the insults , thank you

Let's see where the insults first started, shall we?

Originally Posted by SimenN

I see music like this, a light and a dark side of the music. The light side is good, and the dark evil and destructive.

Baroque and classical is the light side of the music.
The rest is the dark side of the music.

Too bad, many of you have fell to the dark side, but i belive in redemption, you can all be saved.

Originally Posted by SimenN

But I think the realy good music started in the Baroque and ended with Mozart. That is my opinion.

You have a propensity to confuse your personal taste in music with some objective statement about music.

That you PREFER the music of the baroque and classical periods is one thing.

That good music was or was not written after that period is, obviously completely outside of your ability to judge.

You appear to have so little knowledge of music in the 20th century and beyond that, really, your opinion on anything related to it is pretty meaningless.

Lol that was a joke? read the rest, i was kidding with SSC

There are people in here who could talk about 20-25 years of study, so? Any problem or any solution with that?

SimenN, I really don't see any question marks in your posts in this thread. You are not trying to understand, you are not attempting it even, you are simply trying to mock someone else, your peer (assuming you are a composer). It's a pity really... Denying yourself the questions, you won't go much further. Because who is to say that what you mock today and find hillarious and ridiculous, won't be the future, or won't spring an idea that IS acceptable? Do you have any idea how many composers, bands, etc has Cage influenced with his art and his music? Even if you, personally, find 4'33" (like this is the only thing that Cage did) funny, or ridiculous, there are many people who have been influenced by his work and I could also name some big big names as well (Sonic Youth, for example, Radiohead, for another example).

So in the end, feel free to not question, not research, not worry about anything and feel comfortable, for all I care. Isn't this the point of an internet forum?

NO! it isn't! It's quite the opposite, but, as I said, never mind.

YIKES! Missed the 2nd page.

Sorry I wasted my time with SimenN! QCC already tried... Sorry that QCC wasted his time!

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

Why don't you give it a rest?

I think that's the whole point, eh?

Newman