Music theory = Creativity block?

I have always found the idea that knowledge blocks creativity uncomprehensible (strange).

Theory gives you all these different techniques to write out an idea. It even activates creativity.

If music didn't have music theory I wouldn't be interested in it.[/b]

Amen, brother. Testify.

I sence anger and emotion in your thinking (bad).....

Wolf, I've had a bad week - in fact, my whole country has had a bad week - and my patience is wearing thin. Forgive me. But also understand where I'm coming from. I have had proteges and students who have come to me for help and advice, saying they wanted to compose music in a traditional idiom (Classical, Baroque, etc). When I tell them that if they want to play Bach's and Mozart's game they have to play by their rules, they've usually ignored me or gave some silly reason why they liked their way better. When I refused to validate their work anyway, they got upset and accused me of trying to take away their creativity.

That's where my anger and emotion comes from. And that's what I mean by "lazy," "undisciplined," and "stabbing around in the dark." If all you want is to fool around, fine. But if you're trying for a specific result, something that really works, you need to know something about music theory...or hope you get really lucky.

Chopin, Schubert and Mussorgsky weren't disciplined

What do you mean by disciplined? I'm not talking about work habits (though Schubert wrote something - at least something - every day of his adult life, and if that's not disciplined, I don't know what is). They all knew their music theory solidly, and it didn't stop them from being creative, either, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

For example many composers traveld a lot and sought inspiration cultures that they are not familiar with (Handel, Dvorak, John Cage......) and came up with something totaly original.

Knowledge of theory didn't hold them back, either.

You are just lowering all kinds of experimentation to "stabing in the dark". And it is possible that, by doing so, your unconcious mind avoids everything that music theory forbids.

That's very possible. People have always told me "free your mind, Lee!"

Why? What is the purpose of all this learning and experience we've amassed in music if we're just going to throw it all out the window and start hammering around on rocks with thighbones like Neanderthals did, calling it new and experimental? I have too much respect for the art and science of music to do that.

I also don't believe that just because someone gets their hands on a notation program and starts plunking notes onto staves with no knowledge of what they're doing that it automatically makes them a composer. That's also what I mean by "stabbing in the dark."

Experiment to your heart's content. But when you want to get serious about it, learn theory. It won't hold you back from being creative, and it will probably make you a better composer. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by J. Lee Graham@Sep 3 2005, 11:03 AM
[b]Why?* What is the purpose of all this learning and experience we've amassed in music if we're just going to throw it all out the window and start hammering around on rocks with thighbones like Neanderthals did, calling it new and experimental?* I have too much respect for the art and science of music to do that.*

I also don't believe that just because someone gets their hands on a notation program and starts plunking notes onto staves with no knowledge of what they're doing that it automatically makes them a composer.* That's also what I mean by "stabbing in the dark."

Experiment to your heart's content.* But when you want to get serious about it, learn theory.* It won't hold you back from being creative, and it will probably make you a better composer.* That's all I'm saying.

I can't say I disagree with you in general, Lee, seeing as I'm trying to learn theory myself, but I do disagree with some of your statements; following your example, the Neanderthals did eventually lead to this music we have now. If we start with some of the rules of theory, rather than all of them, won't that eventually lead somewhere entirely new, just as tribal music in Kenya is different from music in China, which is different again from music in Indonesia...

Stabbing in the dark might not be composing immediately, but it leads to real composing. I started with stabbing in the dark, and sooner or later, I'll actually be a composer, and I don't need theory, I just think it'll help me to get there sooner.

But I don't think music theory stifles creativity. It helps to know what rules your breaking before you break them, though without theory, you'd figure out eventually that parallel fifths sound bad, for instance. The only time theory will stifle creativity is when the theories are presented as unbreakable laws, or when the composer is expected to think they're always right. But in general, theory will provide a sound enough foundation, I think.

I think that is were the key lies. Music theory is the ground work. Take it for what it is worth, but you must always remember it is not the Holy Bible of music! It is simply guide to help you understand music and expand your knownledge. Like chris said before I, It helps to know the rules you are breaking. Also theory helps a person communicate to other musicians/composer. Theory gaves us a lot of the jargon we use as musicians.

Originally posted by J. Lee Graham@Sep 3 2005, 07:03 PM
[b]That's where my anger and emotion comes from.* And that's what I mean by "lazy," "undisciplined," and "stabbing around in the dark."* If all you want is to fool around, fine.* But if you're trying for a specific result, something that really works, you need to know something about music theory...or hope you get really lucky.
What do you mean by disciplined?* I'm not talking about work habits (though Schubert wrote something - at least something - every day of his adult life, and if that's not disciplined, I don't know what is).* They all knew their music theory solidly, and it didn't stop them from being creative, either, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.
Knowledge of theory didn't hold them back, either.

I was just trying to understand what you were saying. It was all very confusing at one point.... now i understand what you were trying to say.

Wolf, I've had a bad week - in fact, my whole country has had a bad week - and my patience is wearing thin. Forgive me. But also understand where I'm coming from. I have had proteges and students who have come to me for help and advice, saying they wanted to compose music in a traditional idiom (Classical, Baroque, etc). When I tell them that if they want to play Bach's and Mozart's game they have to play by their rules, they've usually ignored me or gave some silly reason why they liked their way better. When I refused to validate their work anyway, they got upset and accused me of trying to take away their creativity.

Sorry about the bad week... totaly forgot about that...
But your story about "playing Mozart's game" rang a bell inside my head. If someone says : "I want to write like Mozart (or bach or whatever)" does he even think about his own motivation for composing? can his sentance be translated to : " I want to be famous" ?

What exactly does it mean to "know" music theory? Do you have to know labels for devices you absorb?

Say I learned the circle of fifths progression, secondary dominants, and basic part writing rules (etc.) entirely by ear and had no idea what they were called, but I have been using them intuitively.

Am I using music theory knowledge? I'd say I am...I just don't know the labels for what I do.

Music theory is not rules. It is an attempt at explain some things about music.

I recommend discovering a music theory. Working for it, for an understanding. If you want your music to sound like music you've heard, it is obviously useful to seek a deeper understanding of that music. Do it yourself!

Music theory is not rules. It is an attempt at explain some things about music.

*gasp* I love that statement. It's so very true, and it can be applied to so many things beyond it's obvious musical applications. But this isn't the place for philosophy...

You don't mind if I quote you?

And I like the idea of discovering your own music theory, while incorporating many of the "rules" (which are really better termed "explainations") of traditional Music Theory, and thowing out others, because you have an explaination that better points you in the direction you want to go. Hey, if you want to write in a Romantic idiom, then study the rules that those composers learned. If you want to write in a Baroque idiom, then study those rules. If you want to write in a modern idiom, study those rules, and so on and so forth.

Thank, jacob, I think you've shaped my opinon about theory. Of couse, seeing as I'm only half-awake, that opinion might change in the next few hours. lol.

Hehe!

Hehe! (yes, this is sarcasm )

?

(And so that my entire post isn't a question mark whats the hehe for...? Or do I even want to know? I'm guessing not.)