Notating octaves?

So I have a piano piece I'm working on and both staves are in treble clef but I'd like to have some sustained notes ring out in around the lowest range of the piano. I haven't quite figured out how to accomplish this. I didn't want to add some crazy amount of ledger lines so my first thought was to use the 15vb line. I added the sustained notes as a second voice and put the line underneath but, as I thought my happen, when it plays back the whole staff gets lowered instead of just that voice. I then looked for other symbols that might work on single notes but couldn't find anything. I also looked at some other music that uses a wide range like this at points and found a John Adams score where he writes in a treble and bass clef on the bottom staff. Alas, I couldn't figure out a way to do this in Sibelius.

With all this in mind, does anyone have a clue how I could accomplish this in Sibelius? Is there some notation that I'm not aware of? Does the 15vb idea work but Sibelius doesn't play it back right? I'm at a loss after searching the manual and the internet. Here's a print out of where I'm stuck (last measure):

http://www.joshmcneill.com/docs/Temp.pdf

Well the note you have there is impossible unless you have an extended Boesndorfer piano. It's a super-low F# if I'm not mistaken. If it's up an octave, it's not that hard to read. Say that it was an A, the lowest on the piano, I would write the note an octave up and put a "8" or "8vb" symbol under the note suggesting that applies to only the note it's under. See the attached picture. In the piano part, there are 8s under certain notes in the bass cleff staff indicating them to be played 8vb.



(For the record, this is from Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1 in B-flat minor.)

Originally Posted by Justin Tokke

Well the note you have there is impossible unless you have an extended Boesndorfer piano. It's a super-low F# if I'm not mistaken. If it's up an octave, it's not that hard to read. Say that it was an A, the lowest on the piano, I would write the note an octave up and put a "8" or "8vb" symbol under the note suggesting that applies to only the note it's under. See the attached picture. In the piano part, there are 8s under certain notes in the bass cleff staff indicating them to be played 8vb.

It shouldn't be impossible to hit as my lower clef there is treble clef. That note is the 2nd D# below middle C. Hopefully I'm not completely mistaken in the range of a piano.

That sounds pretty much what I was looking for. I'll have to look for that in Sibelius. Thanks.

You can always use an additional third stave for such passages too, which isn't so uncommon. Especially in this situation, i.e. long sustained notes in one register and both hands playing something different in another register it's rather common.

There's even some piano music written on four staves, although very rarely.

If you want to look for an example of four-staved writing, I can think off-hand of the Rachmoninov prelude in C# minor. It took me a while to realise that there where four staves per system and had me pretty confused for quite a while. If you do resort to using more than two staves, be VERY clear of your intentions.

Originally Posted by JoshMc

It shouldn't be impossible to hit as my lower clef there is treble clef. That note is the 2nd D# below middle C. Hopefully I'm not completely mistaken in the range of a piano.

That sounds pretty much what I was looking for. I'll have to look for that in Sibelius. Thanks.

Indeed it is treble clef. My bad. It would be possible. In that case, then put the upper voice on the upper staff in Voice 2, then put it in bass clef for that one small passage. Use lines to indicate the passing of the parts to the other staff. IMO, it is clearer than three staves, easier to read too.

For the first thing, look in the Symbols dialouge by pressing "Z". It won't play back however.

I think the image that Justin Tokke showed doesn't mean that a note is to be played an octave lower.

That notation means "coll ottava", which means "with the octave/at the octave", basically meaning you should play that note doubled by the note an octave lower (in this case). So, in the passage shown, you should play the A written WITH the A below it. Not just the A below it.

If you want to notate a note and indicate it's to be played an octave below, then:

A Million Notation Questions! (read the posts below that as well).

I haven't EVER seen 15vb, firstly because the term itself is wrong (for two octaves, you use 15ma, which comes from the Italian term "quindicesima", which means "at the 15th", or in practical terms, "two octaves above". If you said "15vb", that would be equal to saying "quindicesava bassa", which doesn't really exist (a mix of "quindicesima" and "ottava bassa" - I guess if it meant something, it would be "two octaves above the octave below" :S ). So it is important to understand how abbreviations and terms came to be what they are, to avoid mistakes like this.

In any case, I haven't seen any kind of "2 octaves below" sign in any piece I've seen so far, not even in Stockhausen's Klavierstucke or Xenakis' "Evryali". There is not practical application for a sign like this.

Also, I am not using sibelius, so I wouldn't be able to help you with the technical stuff, but one solution would be to momentarily (for the bar, or for the length of the sustained notes) write the music in three staves, and use an 8vb sign on the lower stave while writing the notes normally on the other staves.

Writing for three staves has been done (among others) by composers such as Schumann (his "Romance No.2 in F#", although he does it to make the melodic lines clearer), Messiaen (in his "Quatre études de rythme", for example, where he had different dynamics and different octaves for each stave), Takemitsu (his "Romance", where at points he has three staves with different phrases at different octave dispositions) and Schoenberg (in his "2 Stücke" - where he does exactly what you're looking for: he has two chords, in very high and very low registers which are to be sustained, and then he has playing in the middle registers).

Hope I helped!



EDIT: Oops! Sorry guys, I didn't see you had already answered that My fault..

Originally Posted by jujimufu

I haven't EVER seen 15vb, firstly because the term itself is wrong (for two octaves, you use 15ma, which comes from the Italian term "quindicesima", which means "at the 15th", or in practical terms, "two octaves above". If you said "15vb", that would be equal to saying "quindicesava bassa", which doesn't really exist (a mix of "quindicesima" and "ottava bassa" - I guess if it meant something, it would be "two octaves above the octave below" :S ). So it is important to understand how abbreviations and terms came to be what they are, to avoid mistakes like this.

In any case, I haven't seen any kind of "2 octaves below" sign in any piece I've seen so far, not even in Stockhausen's Klavierstucke or Xenakis' "Evryali". There is not practical application for a sign like this.

I should have said 15mb, not 15vb. My mistake. I had it mixed up as the one octave below symbol is 8vb. This symbol very much does exist as I found it on Wikipedia (saying that it means to play two octaves below what is written) and in Sibelius' list of symbols. I don't really understand why it would be so easy to find in these places if it didn't have a practical application. Of course, I'm obviously no expert with this symbol, just a bit confused as to why there seems to be conflicting information so far in this thread.

there are two options:

1. a small bass clef just before that low note
2. placing the left hand material in the upper staff, thus allowing your lower staff to remain a bass clef staff.

I would go with the 2nd option.

Originally Posted by JoshMc

I'm obviously no expert with this symbol, just a bit confused as to why there seems to be conflicting information so far in this thread.

Where do you see the conflict? You should take a loot at threads like "Is atonal music dead?" for some conflict

In any case, nobody's saying any different than the others.

And quoting wikipedia, "[15mb] could mean two octaves lower, but two octaves below the low notes of the bass clef is below the range of nearly all instruments."

So there, you probably won't need it. And btw, even if wikipedia mentions the probable existence of that symbol, and even if Sibelius has it, it doesn't mean people have been using it or that it is the easiest/clearest way to do things.

On a last note, don't care about playback: just write what should be write, and simply ignore the playback on that particular beat of the measure, if you really need the playback so badly.