Opinions on Sample Libraries

Hey there,
I am looking for some user feedback on the different sample libraries that are available these days. I am currently using old stock Reason Refills for arrangements, and obviosly there are limitations to getting a usable sound here.

So, I've bounced around the web and came up with a good impression of the quality of the sounds involved with the following:
Garritan Personal Orchestra
Garritan Jazz
East West Quantum Leap Gold and Platinum bundles
Vienna Symphonic (too many products here to list)

Anybody out there have experience with one or more of these?
I'd like to hear about workflow and how responsive or "smart" the sample programming is. What is the software package like for each parent sample set, and does it play nice with your host sequencing/notation program (ex. Cubase, Finale etc.)?

My needs:
Access to decent full orchestra and jazz combo sounds for my own arrangement purposes.
Access to very good quality string and piano samples for professional level film scoring (think piano quintet).

Thanks to anyone who can help!

I only have experience with Garritan Personal Orchestra, in association with Finale 2007. Overall I've been overjoyed with it, though I was disappointed at the relatively narrow choice of instruments. I gather that more recent versions have a wider variety. I wouldn't know anything about jazz combo sounds.

Originally Posted by J. Lee Graham

I only have experience with Garritan Personal Orchestra, in association with Finale 2007. Overall I've been overjoyed with it, though I was disappointed at the relatively narrow choice of instruments. I gather that more recent versions have a wider variety. I wouldn't know anything about jazz combo sounds.

No, it's not "more recent versions" that have more sounds, it's the "complete" version that has more sounds. "GPO for Finale" is a limited soundset.

An example: in GPO for Finale, there is only "Violins KS". While in the full GPO, there's 1st Violins KS, and 2nd Violins KS. As a matter of fact, the full version has a complete set of 1st violins with various articulations, as well as a complete matching set of 2nd violins.

Hmmm... I wonder why Finale doesn't have the whole set, then? The "full" set of GPO could have everything but the kitchen sink, but if it won't play my score, then it's useless to me.

You have to buy it seperately. It's not dear, but I guess for the Finale version, as it comes bundled with it, they didn't want you to be getting everything. They still want to have a product to offer.

Originally Posted by Mizzle

I am looking for some user feedback on the different sample libraries that are available these days. I am currently using old stock Reason Refills for arrangements, and obviously there are limitations to getting a usable sound here.

Agreed. While Reason is great for many other genres of music and functions, orchestral is not it's strong point.

Originally Posted by Mizzle

Anybody out there have experience with one or more of these?
I'd like to hear about workflow and how responsive or "smart" the sample programming is. What is the software package like for each parent sample set, and does it play nice with your host sequencing/notation program (ex. Cubase, Finale etc.)?

You make an interesting comment here: "smart" sample programming. Most of this doesn't lie on the sample but on the user. Finale integrates GPO into the playback taking care of most of the sample decisions for you. Other programs (Logic, Cubase, Sonar, Protools) don't do this for you, but give you much more freedom and flexibility in what kind(s) of samples you choose to use. If you're willing to learn what samples work for what kinds of musical lines and situations, then you'll get more realism and flexibility.

I use Logic and Sonar with VSTi. While I do use Pro Tools, I don't use VSTs very often with it. I use Pro Tools more as a mastering program. I've used East West and the VSL samples. I do have GPO as well, but find it the most limited out of the three.

Now based on your needs:

Originally Posted by Mizzle

Access to decent full orchestra and jazz combo sounds for my own arrangement purposes. Access to very good quality string and piano samples for professional level film scoring (think piano quintet).

I think East West or VSL will be better for your needs. East West has a great, large Hollywood sound, but the Silver and Gold packages only have one mic setting available which has some embedded reverb. This can be a con when you're wanting to create intimate ensembles like string quartets. This is where VSL would serve you better, but just understand that you'll have to do a bit more processing to get a good sound. I also don't like the way VSL names their files- which makes the work flow a bit more cumbersome.

One thing you didn't mention is your budget. There is also Project SAM which is getting alot of attention and use by major composers for media. The top VSL package is around $20,000!! So what is your budget? This will help me give you some realistic options.

Thanks,

Nathan

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

No, it's not "more recent versions" that have more sounds, it's the "complete" version that has more sounds. "GPO for Finale" is a limited soundset.

An example: in GPO for Finale, there is only "Violins KS". While in the full GPO, there's 1st Violins KS, and 2nd Violins KS. As a matter of fact, the full version has a complete set of 1st violins with various articulations, as well as a complete matching set of 2nd violins.

Ooh, so when I -do- have 1st/2nd Violins KS/Arco/Pizzicato/Tremolo etc. that means I have the full GPO? I never realized that. (I get Finale in a music software package package from my college and wasn't aware there also was a bigger GPO library in it than the one normally in Finale.)

Originally Posted by Gardener

Ooh, so when I -do- have 1st/2nd Violins KS/Arco/Pizzicato/Tremolo etc. that means I have the full GPO? I never realized that. (I get Finale in a music software package package from my college and wasn't aware there also was a bigger GPO library in it than the one normally in Finale.)

if, when you look at the notation directory when choosing instruments, and you have a directory for 1st violins, and a second directory for 2nd violins, then you have the full version of GPO.

However, there is no Finale bundle, that I am aware of, that includes the complete GPO.

Originally Posted by Nathan Madsen

You make an interesting comment here: "smart" sample programming. Most of this doesn't lie on the sample but on the user. Finale integrates GPO into the playback taking care of most of the sample decisions for you. Other programs (Logic, Cubase, Sonar, Protools) don't do this for you, but give you much more freedom and flexibility in what kind(s) of samples you choose to use. If you're willing to learn what samples work for what kinds of musical lines and situations, then you'll get more realism and flexibility. Nathan

So, a question: How do these programs handle articulations, and complex issues like multi-sampled repeated notes? It's been a long time since I worked with Finale (about 7 years), but I remember the playback responding to a few things like spicatto, pedal and dynamics, but does it recognize a wider range of score markings such as:
harmonics
glissando
sul ponticello
col legno
con sordino

If it doesen't would that mean I would have to setup a new instrument to do the job for each? Also, would MIDI exports contain all of the general orchestral markings in a format readable to your host sequencer (Cubase in my scenario), or would the sequencer disregard bow markings?
Another thing I am not clear on is, how do the samples (for any of the libraries) load into the sequencer? Does each instrument appear as a Vitual Instrument, or are they essentialy grouped as one giant plug-in (or I could have it completely wrong and all of the samples are brought up in a 3rd party plug-in sampler?)?

Originally Posted by Nathan Madsen

I think East West or VSL will be better for your needs. East West has a great, large Hollywood sound, but the Silver and Gold packages only have one mic setting available which has some embedded reverb. This can be a con when you're wanting to create intimate ensembles like string quartets. This is where VSL would serve you better, but just understand that you'll have to do a bit more processing to get a good sound. I also don't like the way VSL names their files- which makes the work flow a bit more cumbersome.

One thing you didn't mention is your budget. There is also Project SAM which is getting alot of attention and use by major composers for media. The top VSL package is around $20,000!! So what is your budget? This will help me give you some realistic options.

Nathan

The comment about East West mic placement options is exactly what I needed to hear. My first thought when listening to their demos was about control of ambiance. Does the Platinum bundle contain close-miced versions?

My budget is 2-4k, dependant on other factors. My curiosity is over whether I should grab a full bundle in that range, or alternatively be satisfied with a limited pallete of high-quality sounds (Vienna Symphonic strings, piano), and suffer the wrath of free GPO sounds from Finale.
My thought about going the limited pallete route, would be that upon the completion of string quartet and piano trio pieces, I could then uprade in increments, and by adding different sections, would learn more about the principles of orchestration in line with traditional pedagogy.

Originally Posted by J. Lee Graham

Hmmm... I wonder why Finale doesn't have the whole set, then? The "full" set of GPO could have everything but the kitchen sink, but if it won't play my score, then it's useless to me.

Because the "Finale edition" of GPO is a teaser of sorts.
Since GPO and most of the other Garritan products are so inexpensive, it would be counter-productive for the makers of GPO to include the "full" version of their product with sales of Finale, as a free add-on. Finale and GPO are made by two entirely different companies.

So they include a "teaser" version: the GPO for Finale library, which is a "light" version. Quite functional, but not as complete as the full product.

By the way, as a registered user of Finale, you get a discount on any future purchases of Garritan products if you do so via the MakeMusic website.