Orchestration: PART 1 (woodwinds) discussion

Originally Posted by Chris

I had a go at the Chord exercise too.

This is a D Minor; it has a very daunting energy. Reminds me of the first chord to those tunes they play on merry-go-rounds.

Any good?

there's no "good or bad" in this course

just better and better

You might consider where the majority of the instrumental weight is placed. Your upper part is rather sparse, while the lower part is heavier.

This will work to certain effects, but won't ALWAYS be what you want to create a nice sound.

How about trying it again, using some of the other forms of intervalic integration? for example, two oboes between two clarinets? or between the two flutes? or staggered instruments, one flute, one oboe, one flute, a clarinet, the other oboe, and the next clarinet...

Do you know what the harmonic series is? If you play a single sound in teh low register, for example on the organ or on the piano, overtones will sound above that note. The first one will be the octave, then the 5th, then another octave, and so on. The point being that low sounds do well when they are doubled at points that coincide with harmonic nodes.

So starting from the lowest note of a chord, an accoustically strong next note is the first octave up. Then the 5th up from there, then again up to the next the octave (here meaning the next "same" note). Once this base is set, you can start entering the 3rds of the chord and 7ths if they are present in your harmony.

The important thing here is that I don't want people orchestrating "like me".

I want them to learn as much as they can from what I CAN teach them, and thus be better able to go off and do something that is entirely unique to each composer.

So the goal of most of these exercises is to try them in as many ways as possible and experiment.
Get feedback on why some might work better than others, and find directions you might not have gone otherwise.

More questions

1. In the chord I wrote above, the clarinets and the cor anglais are notated incorrectly, right? Even though Sibelius plays them correctly, they should be written higher?

2. The piccolo is played an octave higher than it is written?

Cheers.

let's say you are writing a unison middle C for cor anglais and clarinet, then you would notate it as G a 5th higher for the cor anglais, and as D a 2nd higher or the clarinet.

And yes, the piccolo is notated one octave LOWER than it actually sounds.

Is there an option in Sibelius to "see score in concert pitch" or something to that effect? This MIGHT make things easier for you for a while.

Originally Posted by Qccowboy

Is there an option in Sibelius to "see score in concert pitch" or something to that effect? This MIGHT make things easier for you for a while.

Ah thank you I'll look into that. Basically Sibelius is playing a written C as a C for clarinet for example. It makes things easier when you don't have to consider these notation differences, but I'd rather get used to the proper way NOW instead of than 3 months down the line or whatever.

Cheers

Okay, I felt like doing Exercise 3 all the sudden, so here it is.
Db major chord, I was trying to put everything as close together as possible. Lots of closed intervals here, I wanted a quiet hummmmmm, at pianissimo at most, maybe less; pianississimo (thus, the flutes in their lowest register have room to balance). Would it be too much to ask the English horn/cor anglais to play up an octave? That would be written high C, I have no idea how that would work at such a low dynamic, but I wanted THAT instrument on the top if possible. I wanted to emphasize the third of the chord, the F.

I would usually have a chord like this with only half the woodwinds, but I wanted to see if I can do it with a full section.

Originally Posted by EnigmusJ4

Okay, I felt like doing Exercise 3 all the sudden, so here it is.
Db major chord, I was trying to put everything as close together as possible. Lots of closed intervals here, I wanted a quiet hummmmmm, at pianissimo at most, maybe less; pianississimo (thus, the flutes in their lowest register have room to balance). Would it be too much to ask the English horn/cor anglais to play up an octave? That would be written high C, I have no idea how that would work at such a low dynamic, but I wanted THAT instrument on the top if possible. I wanted to emphasize the third of the chord, the F.

I would usually have a chord like this with only half the woodwinds, but I wanted to see if I can do it with a full section.

OK, let me comment in a bit of detail your chord.

There is a minor problem in the piccolo - its lowest note is a D natural.
I think that your flutes could have been placed a tiny bit higher, they do risk being lost in the double reed sound.

Your oboes are right in the middle of what is generally their most lyrical and comfortable zone. Written that way: a 4th, it risks being more pungent than you really might want. For some reason, 4ths and 5ths in the oboe REALLY stick out.

The english horn is the exception in the double reeds. It is capable of a very carefully controlled pianissimo in its lowest register, so placing where you did is actually quite nice. You might even have placed it an octave LOWER!

Now, for the clarinets, they end up doubling notes of both oboe and flute. I don't know if that's really what you want as an effect. If you are really looking for a pianississimo effect you might try less actual unison doublings, and more open spacing.

The bassoons can handle where they are quite well. The contrabassoon, on teh other hand, is going to be just a tiny bit straining.

Whoops! I keep thinking of those old Db piccolos....

Okay, a few changes. Number one, brought the piccolo up to low F, which completes the idea of the chord being in the second inversion, which is what I set into place by putting the contrabassoon on the dominant. I'm REALLY emphasizing the dominant now, I have a lot of doublings on it now. I also brought the clarinets down since you said to make it more open, and this eliminates some unnecessary doublings. I also realised that having the clarinets lower, they hum better.

For some strange reason, I find it most beautiful as a Maj7 chord, with only Flute I on the 7th. Only Clarinet I is on the tonic. However, you can ignore the 7th in Flute I and put if back to the tonic note if we're not supposed to be using 7th chords here.

Overall, it's supposed to be whispy now.

My only concern is that the flutes may dissappear in the texture, they're in a particularly vulnerable place where they are now.

You might consider moving them up a tiny bit, maybe a 5th higher, where they won't necessarily "shine" through the texture, but they will at least be a tiny bit more present, maybe atttenuating the oboes a bit.

Really no intention of arguing here, but if the entire section is at pianissimo, can't the flutes balance the others more easily, as if playing a mezzo-something or other? Possible? No? If not, why does this not work?

Ok, I mentionned in the course somewhere that it is best to balance using register and timbre than trying to adjust through dynamics.

Generally, giving different dynamics to different instruments is an artificial way of dealing with a balance problem. The best thing is to learn how to deal with same-dynamic issues before experimenting with alternating dynamics.

One of the main reasons trying to balance through the use of dynamics doesn't work, is that dynamics are relative. Giving louder dynamics to one instrument can lead to believe that that instrument is a solo. Which of course destroys the effect of blending you are trying to achieve.

This is why I refer to it as an "artificial" way of dealing with the issue. It relies too heavily on explanations and additional text in the score.

It is always best to balance naturally.