Orchestration: PART 1 (woodwinds) discussion

Thanks so much for that Michel, I shall look over my exercise tomorrow (pretty late here) with what you said in mind and shall post a revised version as soon as I've seen to the points you've raised. I look forward to continuing working on this, since starting these exercises my knowledge of and confidence with the wind section has increased tenfold and for that I thank you very much

Mark

I've kept the second clarinet going when you suggested, but not playing exactly the same as the first clarinet, as you mentioned the leap may be difficult for clarinet 2 (I think, I may have misunderstood you on that bit). I got the clarinet to replace the oboe there, to keep the oboe entrace for the climax.

Originally Posted by Mark

I've kept the second clarinet going when you suggested, but not playing exactly the same as the first clarinet, as you mentioned the leap may be difficult for clarinet 2 (I think, I may have misunderstood you on that bit). I got the clarinet to replace the oboe there, to keep the oboe entrace for the climax.

no, the leap is no problem.

my issue is with instrument density.

Why don't I post mine and you can see what I mean.

full orchestration of woodwind melody

When you look at the PDF file (the score) it's not important that you know exctly what the "new" instruments (I added harp, percussion, and four horns) are doing... what is important is the density of the woodwind part.

See how when I add a "new" instrument to the melodic line it STAYS there? Considering that the entire first half of the phrase leads up to that forte part, it's important to construct by adding density and weight to the melodic line.

Once we hit the forte passage, the entire ensemble is playing, then when it repeats suddenly piano I can afford to remove many instruments suddenly. It's an almost identical phrase repetition, the ear will hear as such and the shock of the suddenly different orchestration will amplify the change in dynamic.

I think the important thing is that whenever you add or remove instruments (even for a few notes as you did with your 2nd clarinet part in the beginning) you bring attention to that passage. Therefore it is important to sustain the attention.

If you remove instruments, you are saying "this is a lighter texture for this phrase" and the ear will definately hear it that way.

If you remove instruments suddenly from a thicker texture, you are removing focus from that phrase or bringing all of the focus onto a single solo instrument.

If you add instruments gradually, you are saying "this is getting denser and prepares something larger".

If you add them suddenly you are saying "this passage merits particular notice".

Any of these methods are valid, but they must ALL be used with purpose. If you skip back and forth between varying densities too rapidly, then the melodic passage will tend to sound confused and hectic. The ear will have more difficulty identifying your thematic material as well.

If there's anything you don't understand in the above, please don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks for that explanation, it makes perfect sense. I shall have a try at coming up with some material to work with for the last exercise, this may take me a bit longer as coming up with material isn't my strong point. I could actually try extending a melody that was the theme from a failed orchestral piece of mine a while ago, it could suit this quite well I think.

I have done all the exercises up to number IV. So here is my version of the woodwind and string accompaniment.

Hope that there it isn't too bad

–Matthew

Originally Posted by Saiming

I have done all the exercises up to number IV. So here is my version of the woodwind and string accompaniment.

Hope that there it isn't too bad

–Matthew

hehehe, it isn't TOO bad
you DID break one rule of the exercise, however - no harmony notes were permitted. this is an exercise in unison/octave/double octave doubling.

ok, other than that, let me point out some details:

the very wide distance between clarinet 1 and the bassoon pair will make the sound clearly point to the clarinet as a "soloist" in the first 3 measures. This isn't bad (it's actually a very cool sound), but it WILL bring out any change when you add another instrument, or shift to another grouping.

Now, in measure 4, when the flute comes in, you broke the ties and suddenly shifted the entire melody down one octave.... this is a BIG no-no. You need to respect the "author" of the original when orchestrating.

(NOTE: that lone 2nd bassoon will stick out all by its lonesome in measure 5 on that low G... even if it WAS permitted to "add notes" to the phrase)

Where I DO see a big weakness is at the Forte part of the phrase... flute 2 is in teh weakest part of the flute range, and is playing a note you should not get in the habit of using (low B, not all flautists have the B extension). That low B, even on a flute with the extension, will be completely silent in anything other than an absolute solo context (ie: solo as in ONLY that single flute playing, nothing else).

Likewise, the bassoon does not go that low!

Ok, I'd like to point out another detail: you give the subsequant mp part of the phrase to two instruments, but then add two extra instruments AND a shift in register to the part that finishes pp. not as successful an effect. remember there is a decrescendo on that phrase, you need to orchestrate for it as well.

How about another go at it... with REAL unisons this time?

The exercise with the "harmony notes" was meant for only those who had successfully finished the unison exercise.

This took about 4 hours maybe, with numberous stops for feeding.

Originally Posted by Mark

This took about 4 hours maybe, with numberous stops for feeding.

I will be VERY critical. This isn't a "composition" class so I won't go into any aspect related to that. (just so you're forewarned)

the "not quite a unison" effect in the flutes and oboe is... strange. I don't really see the need for it. if anything, it will sound as though one of the flutes is dragging the sound out or playing ahead of the beat. it's not quite as "subtle" as I think you were aiming for.

do be VERY careful when you are reaching and leaving unisons (oboe/clarinet measures 1, 5 and 7)... the effect is of a "lost" voice, actual independance of the lines doesn't carry through.

There is too great a chasm between each pair of instruments. You have elected to go with VERY wide spacing, yet still unisons... and kept pairs of instruments "together" instead of mixing and blending. The effect will be a bit raw and static.

I would MUCH rather see you harmonize a phrase from a Bach chorale than try your hand at an original phrase at this point, actually. You are worrying about the harmony, when in this course you should be concentrating on the orchestration.

Thanks Michel, I shall try and get something done, possibly using Christ lag in Todesbanden, I like that one

Your help really is appreciated, every time I speak to you I'm learning loads more; thanks

As I expected a total bummer

I have re-written it; changed the first few bars concerning the clarinet, changed the forte part and strengthened the mp-> pp part. I however don't want to throw away the last chord, it makes me feel so warm

Hope I didn't make it worse