Orchestration: PART 1 (woodwinds) discussion

ok, David, I re-orchestrated your piece (which is very pretty, BTW) to include a bit more full woodwind sound.

try to notice where I did unison and octave doublings, and where I camouflaged some parallel 3rds/6ths to thicken textures.

Also try to notice where or for how long the unisons last.. sometimes they're only for a few notes, and it can be enough to help with instrumental density.

David's woodwind example

Ok, I am done with my fifth exercise. I took me about 6 or 7 hours, scattered over three days. Reason why it took longer than I expected was that I re-wrote it 3 times

I am still not too pleased though, so I thought that it might be better for you to check it out and point out the faults.

The melody in the bassoon [bar:2-4] which is doubled with the Oboe in bar 3, is the balance ok? I had a hard time figuring out which of the melodies would be prominent, maybe it is well balanced *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Saiming

Ok, I am done with my fifth exercise. I took me about 6 or 7 hours, scattered over three days. Reason why it took longer than I expected was that I re-wrote it 3 times

I am still not too pleased though, so I thought that it might be better for you to check it out and point out the faults.

The melody in the bassoon [bar:2-4] which is doubled with the Oboe in bar 3, is the balance ok? I had a hard time figuring out which of the melodies would be prominent, maybe it is well balanced *shrugs*

I like the 3rd measure best.
the first two measures are a little bit weak sounding. I think it's because the flute is doubling 3 octaves away from the bassoon. and the clarinets are playing rather open intervals between (one note of which doubles partially the melody).

the sudden drop in density of the 6th measure COULD work, OR... you could also have the flute and oboe drop down one octave, you might consider using only one oboe for the 6th measure...
you might also consider using the 2nd clarinet to play the 1st bassoon part in the 6th and 7th measures.


my sense is that it's a tiny bit too disjointed... I'd like to get a better sense of homogeneity of the woodwind group.

Could you try it again? Keep the same music (which is really nice also!) but look to make things as smooth as possible.

Blend the instruments - enbricking, enclosing, superimposing... remember one of the first lessons. It applies to melodic passages as well.

Reduce your musical meterial to its bare essentials, then from there decide what is "important", what is "melody" and what is "counterpoint" and "harmony".

Originally Posted by Qccowboy

I like the 3rd measure best.
the first two measures are a little bit weak sounding. I think it's because the flute is doubling 3 octaves away from the bassoon. and the clarinets are playing rather open intervals between (one note of which doubles partially the melody).

the sudden drop in density of the 6th measure COULD work, OR... you could also have the flute and oboe drop down one octave, you might consider using only one oboe for the 6th measure...
you might also consider using the 2nd clarinet to play the 1st bassoon part in the 6th and 7th measures.


my sense is that it's a tiny bit too disjointed... I'd like to get a better sense of homogeneity of the woodwind group.

Could you try it again? Keep the same music (which is really nice also!) but look to make things as smooth as possible.

Blend the instruments - enbricking, enclosing, superimposing... remember one of the first lessons. It applies to melodic passages as well.

Reduce your musical meterial to its bare essentials, then from there decide what is "important", what is "melody" and what is "counterpoint" and "harmony".

Ok, I will

Thank you once again.

P.S You told me days ago that you could have an instrument play thirds to give the piece some density, which I did; I changed it to sixths because I found that the overall timbre was more wide.

Originally Posted by Saiming

Ok, I will

Thank you once again.

P.S You told me days ago that you could have an instrument play thirds to give the piece some density, which I did; I changed it to sixths because I found that the overall timbre was more wide.

yes, when you have a line that delineates a certain curve, it can be doubled à la tierce without creating anything "new" contrapuntally.

A 6th should work as well.

I think the reason here that it sounds a bit "naked" is that there are repeated notes, so it ends up sounding like incomplete harmony rather than a "line".

Originally Posted by Qccowboy

yes, when you have a line that delineates a certain curve, it can be doubled à la tierce without creating anything "new" contrapuntally.

A 6th should work as well.

I think the reason here that it sounds a bit "naked" is that there are repeated notes, so it ends up sounding like incomplete harmony rather than a "line".

So if I want to make my piece quit freezing and make it put some clothes on I should try to have a more 'moving' harmony to avoid repeated notes?

Wow, everytime I learn something new, thanks a million

ok, this isn't strictly "orchestration", but I'll go into it a bit.

If your main theme requires a sequence of repeated notes, you have the opportunity of creating a simple contrapuntal line to accompany it.

For example, let's say in C major, your main theme starts with repeated Es:

E ----- E - E - E ---------- (the rest of your melody)

you could "thicken the texture" with a 3rd below it (the C),

E ----- E - E - E ---------- (the rest of your melody)
C ----- C - C - C ---------- (continue parallel 3rds)

or take advantage of the length of time you have to creat a brief melodic passage below, that goes from one "valid" thickening note (the C) to another one (the G, a 6th below)

E ----- E - E - E ---------- (the rest of your melody)
C - B - C -B A -G ---------(then continue in 6ths)

there is a great deal of freedom to move from one set of parallel notes which are not "independant counterpoint" but simple thickening of the texture to a NEW set of parallel notes... if you are creating a parallel line in 3rds, you can briefly let the "thickening" veer off by itself to catch up to another note that lets you continue in parallel 3rds or 6ths from that point on. Basically, you choose sections of your melody which will be thickened in a very straightforward way, then find the juncture points where you could make the switches from one sort of thickening to another. By the way, you can also move from unison doubling to thickened texture where appropriate. A thickened line will be "richer" sounding than a simple unison doubling, and again, this is without actually adding any new melodic material.

Here is an example of a simple melody, starting with repeated notes.
below the melody are two possible "thickenings" of the melody - in 3rds and in 6ths.
The first "version" starts out in 3rds and suddenly shifts to 6ths (at the 1st arrow). it then shifts to parallel 3rds (at the 2nd arrow)

The second version starts in 3rds and at the arrow gains a little bit of independance as an oblique counterpoint to become a parallel melody at the 6th, then shifts (at the 2nd arrow) to parallel 3rds.

It ends up sounding like "counterpoint" but it's really nothing more than parallel movement in another voice (which is actually a "no no" in true counterpoint).

Please ask questions if there are things you are not undertanding in this.

When choosing which instruments that should thicken, should one apply the rules of orchestration? Like we are doing now, or are there completely different rules for that?

the same general ideas, yes.

you can have multiple instruments on the main melody, either at the unison, or in octaves, and the "thickening" can be either the 2nd desk of each instrument or selected instruments.

for example:
one might have Fl1 and Ob1 on the melody at the unison, FL 2 and Cl1 one octave lower.

the "thickening" could be Ob 2 and Cl 2, in octaves.

it obviously depends on the register of your melodic material.

also, consider that a part might be an octave doubling... that BECOMES a parallel 3rd or 6th (or other interval) thickening the melody.
In teh same way that I made the above examples switch from 3rds to 6ths, an octave or even unison doubling can suddenly become parallel.
however, don't forget to compensate for the sudden lack of density on the main melody that a unison line suddenly switching to an accompaniment function will bring.

Originally Posted by Qccowboy

ok, David, I re-orchestrated your piece (which is very pretty, BTW) to include a bit more full woodwind sound.

try to notice where I did unison and octave doublings, and where I camouflaged some parallel 3rds/6ths to thicken textures.

Also try to notice where or for how long the unisons last.. sometimes they're only for a few notes, and it can be enough to help with instrumental density.

David's woodwind example

Okay. I think I get it. I'm not sure how well I'd be able to execute it now, but this helps.

And thanks for the lovely comment.