Orchestration: PART 2 (brass) discussion

Hi, I did all of Exercise 1 besides the last part. I just wanted some feedback on the first parts before I attempt the last bit.

Original Riff + Horns:



Trumpets + Trombones and Tuba:

(I experimented a little by having the first trumpet finish on a G giving the whole thing a rising theme.)



Thanks.

ok, the problem with your second example (the one with trumpets and trombones) is the close proximity of the bass trombone and tuba, along with the huge gap between 3rd trumpet and 1st trombone.

That's not the best-sounding disposition for an ensemble of this nature.

Generally, and I insist on the term generally, it is best to have the widest intervals between the lowest members of a grouping, and teh closest distance between the highest members.

For example, were you to score a C major chord, you might give a low C to a tuba, then the C one octave up to the 3rd trombone, then you'd give a G to 2nd trombone, and again a c, a 4th up, to the 1st trombone, then your trumpets could easily play E - G - C above that.

I say generally because there ARE exeptions in the repertoire. However, at this point in our learning, it is best to learn the more standard dispositions and learn why those work better.

Oh no, the trumpets and trombones were meant to be two separate exercises, I just had them on the same pic to save me uploading two.

I guess the feedback still applies for the tuba and bass trombone though... thanks for that.

Here's my Ex2, short chord progression for four horns:

I'm not too sure on the ranges, and where each horn is supposed to be, so I've probably put them all in the wrong ranges and stuff

I used a few 7th chords because they sound so excellent with horns

Yes, yes, they do. The ranges are fine... you could have transposed it about a fifth either way and it'd still be playable at your dynamic.

You had the right idea at the beginning, horn 1 and 3 high, 2 and 4 low, 1 on top, 4 on bottom, right on. But I'm not sure how to handle the crossing between horns 1 and 3, we'll see what Qc says. I would have probably voiced the chords differently so that horn 1 was on top more of the time, being careful because horn 3 draws too much attention to itself being above the main melodic line in horn 1. My solution would be to put the triplet line in 3rd horn starting on measure 1, beat 3, and keep the parts switched just like that from there on, so that horn 1 then has the sustaining tones on top.

Of course, then again... maybe this applies here? Qc: "The idea is to trick the ear into hearing a single soprano line, while STILL creating interesting inner lines, yet avoiding giving that single soprano line to one instrument."

Hi Mark, I'm sorry for the delay in responding. (I hurt my back and have been on pain medication... not the best time to be examining orchestration exercises).

OK, first off, the range of your horns is perfectly fine.

On the other hand, if you're following common practice rules, there are a
few issues:

beat 2, there's parallel 5ths between horn 1 and 4.

beat 3, horn 1, the G is the 7th of the chord... it remains unresolved?

still beat 3, horn 1, the F and D... what are those notes? non-chord tones that are neither prepared nor resolved? the problem with them is they are 2nds on either side of the E in horn 2. So, in common practice harmony, they are unprepared, and unresolved dissonances. Not good, generally. They also make a nice little cluster: C-D-E-F#-G.

If beat 3 were rather a V7 chord in 3rd inversion (horn 2 would play a D, horn 4 plays the 7th, which would have no resolution on the next beat.. the 7th would become the root of IV) then we could analyse that horn 1 part as being a passing note on the first 8th, then two chord tones (the F# and the D).


Your analysis of the 2nd measure doesn't quite add up either..

Horn 3, second beat... that B? That whole second beat wants to be a I7 chord. Not a great choice, mind you, since the 7th would not resolve.

Be careful not to confuse counterpoint figurations (like measure 1, beat 3) with legitimate 4-part harmony passing note figures.

OK, that was all about the harmony. Just looking at the horn parts while ignoring the harmony, the part layout is good, though I might have avoided putting horn 3 above horn 1 for so long.

Thanks for taking a look at it.

I'll try to address all of your points:

Originally Posted by Qccowboy

Hi Mark, I'm sorry for the delay in responding. (I hurt my back and have been on pain medication... not the best time to be examining orchestration exercises).

OK, first off, the range of your horns is perfectly fine.

On the other hand, if you're following common practice rules, there are a
few issues:

1 beat 2, there's parallel 5ths between horn 1 and 4.

2 beat 3, horn 1, the G is the 7th of the chord... it remains unresolved?

3 still beat 3, horn 1, the F and D... what are those notes? non-chord tones that are neither prepared nor resolved? the problem with them is they are 2nds on either side of the E in horn 2. So, in common practice harmony, they are unprepared, and unresolved dissonances. Not good, generally. They also make a nice little cluster: C-D-E-F#-G.

4 If beat 3 were rather a V7 chord in 3rd inversion (horn 2 would play a D, horn 4 plays the 7th, which would have no resolution on the next beat.. the 7th would become the root of IV) then we could analyse that horn 1 part as being a passing note on the first 8th, then two chord tones (the F# and the D).


5 Your analysis of the 2nd measure doesn't quite add up either..

Horn 3, second beat... that B? That whole second beat wants to be a I7 chord. Not a great choice, mind you, since the 7th would not resolve.

Be careful not to confuse counterpoint figurations (like measure 1, beat 3) with legitimate 4-part harmony passing note figures.

6 OK, that was all about the harmony. Just looking at the horn parts while ignoring the harmony, the part layout is good, though I might have avoided putting horn 3 above horn 1 for so long.

1: Didn't notice them, thanks.

2: I've taken a liking to the sound of non-dominant seventh chords that aren't necessarily prepared or resolved, I like the little surprise you get I know that this is considered a mistake in common practice harmony, but as we're not in the 18th century anymore I don't think it's too much of a problem.

3: These were just random passing notes, I agree it certainly wasn't the greatest choice, I just liked the double neighbour note type thing.

4: I like that - emmended.

5: I did have I7 on the 2nd beat, must've accidently deleted that when I moved the chords down as they got in the way of the pianoissimo. As for the lack of resolution, see point 2

6: Would it be a good idea to have horn 1 playing what horn 3 had in measure 2, and vice versa?

Thanks very much for looking at it, I appreciate it

PS - Attached is a revised version after reading your comments

Generally, and this is important to remember generally, horn 1 is the guy (or gal) that gets the solo parts.

Often, a composer would take care to make "background" horn parts that were played by horns 2-4, leaving horn 1 to rest his/her lips until that big, exposed solo part coming up.

In these exercises, obviously, we're not taking that into consideration.

I don't believe it's really necessary any more to give extended rest-time to the 1st horn in most contexts.

*******

And a last comment to Mark: generally, when you have "dissonant" notes (ie: 7ths or suspensions, etc...) while you might not necessarily resolve them in a common-practice sense, it's important to understand that in a largely tonal context, they WILL tease the ear into WANTING a resolution. To get away with this effect without resolving, you will have to probably move a tiny bit further away from a really tonal sounding harmony.

I'd suggest that you at least treat thos "dissonant" notes as linearly as possible.
Even if they aren't resolving in the traditional sense, dissonant notes still require a bit of care. You may want to avoid leaping away from them, particularly if you're leaping from a dissonant note to yet another non-chord tone.

And again, this might be something you want to explore: having your dissonant tones move to other dissonant tones... it might create a strong sense of instability. However, be sure that the surrounding context is not so "common-practice" that it just ends up sounding like errors.

Your comment about the dissonances make a lot of sense, I'll take care about that in the future - thanks very much for pointing it out

Qc... I have a question for you. How do you treat cornet vs. trumpet? What do you think we should consider when choosing one or the other, or how to write for one as opposed to the other? Have cornets had a history for ever replacing trumpets in the orchestra, have they even ever been called for?

Also, in your woodwind theory thread, you provided an image illustrating the range of the horn, and I tell you, the low written D you call the lowest extreme is damn near impossible. I can hardly go beyond low written Ab, myself, and the lowest I've heard ever called for was Eb below the stave, but I've never heard it with my own ears. I would call these notes virtually impractical, would you agree?