Piano Prelude D Minor op.2

Originally Posted by S.J. OK!

I don't think that it's impossible to write music that is original. Being influenced by a composer and having echoes of somebody else's style is one thing, taking chunks of someone else's work is another. Now I'm not accusing SimenN of that (again, I’m not sure if he has copied anyone) but you're making some moot points here.

Well speaking of moot points, can you offer the piece of music that you believe SimenN's music sounds like? Perhaps we can listen to it and decide for ourselves whether or not it sounds very much like it.

I think anytime you suggest that someone's work sounds like someone else's work you should be able to point to the music you're referring to. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air.

I actually believed this piece to be almost too simplistic..at times the same rhythmic pattern seemd blase after a while. Either way I liked it for the most part it sound almost bachian at parts..as I know that's your favorite composer..so yeah..good job.

Originally Posted by Abracadabra

Well speaking of moot points, can you offer the piece of music that you believe SimenN's music sounds like? Perhaps we can listen to it and decide for ourselves whether or not it sounds very much like it.

I think anytime you suggest that someone's work sounds like someone else's work you should be able to point to the music you're referring to. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air.

No, I can't. But wait just one second there!! Woah! It's a little early to celebrate victory for now. Yes, I see what you mean by blowing hot air if you have no evidence. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong, it just means I may not be right.

At first, I just wanted to point out what I thought for SimenN's benefit. I had hoped the fact that I found his piece familiar would alarm him and make him think a little harder just in case he has taken a phrase or two from someone else. If after the end of a long think he still can't find something similar to his work then he doesn't have to worry.

If you read my first post on this thread you'll have noticed that I asked if anybody else felt what I felt. I never made a statement saying "THIS IS COPIED FOR CERTAIN!" Why did I ask if anybody else agreed with me? Because I wan't sure (as I've said several times on this thread actually). Why wasn't I sure? Becuase I can't put my finger on that piece of music. Look! You've even quoted me saying that I'm not sure. If I had the piece of course I would have named it and I would have been certain whether SimenN had copied or not becuase I could listen to it and look for similarities.

Also I find it a bit annoying that you failed to address my points. I did make an effort to contribute to the thread and to the debate about innovation in music. What you've done is avoid what I've said and try and put me on the defensive without defending yourself first.

Originally Posted by S.J. OK!

What you've done is avoid what I've said and try and put me on the defensive without defending yourself first.

Well I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. Sorry about that. I just felt that if you're going to suggest that music sounds like something that's already been written you should at least be able to point to the music you think it sounds like.

I thought there were a couple note runs in the melody of SimenN's piece that sounded very similar to one of the Bach Violin sonatas and partitas for solo violin. But even so, is it completely taboo to ever play a phrase again once it's been written by someone?

Seems to me that would be horrible.

You'd be really hard-pressed to know that you've written a piece of music that didn't contain a run of notes almost identical to some other piece of music somewhere.

I sit down at the piano all the time trying to come up with "original phrases". I think it's just about impossible. Almost every combination of notes I try sounds familiar. It's extremely difficult to come up with a run of notes that truly sounds original. AND also sounds GOOD. And you have to add that on, because all the GOOD ones are taking. People have been siting around making up melodies for centuries. There's only 12 notes in a chromatic scale!

It's hard to come up with something that hasn't been done before, or is at least very similar.

And the reason that it's so hard is because most of what you come up with has alread been done to death.

At least that's my feelings on that. I don't see why I should need to defend my feelings.

If you can come up with original phrases with no sweat more power to you! I'm happy for you! I wish I had that gift.

This probably goes back to what I said about 'good' music and its definition. There are only 12 notes in the chromatic scale but there aren't only 12 types of sound in this world. How about the sound between E and F? What about a combination of those sounds? How about those combination of those sounds in a different order? The thing is, as we've grown up listening to the standard chromatic scale with 12 tones, we find listening to anything else weird. This also goes back to listening to more music. Try listening to composers like...I don't know...Debussy. Nothing out of this world but his harmonies can be quite weird at first. Hopefully, you will appreciate 'good' music that you never thought was good before.

Yes, I think it's taboo to write a phrase of music that has already been written. Of course, something like music isn't always black and white and there are contexts to be considered (a musical joke or writing variations to an already-composed theme). But generally, you can't take somebody else's work and say it's yours. Just think how you would like it if somebody took your melody and said they composed it all by themselves.

I'm sure there are plenty of threads on this forum about these topics. I'd like to carry on discussing plagerism and what's acceptable and what isn't. The problem is, there aren't many people reading this thread so it's only the ideas of us two that are being discussed. It's always useful to listen to what other people think. If you can't find a thread then you can always start one yourself.

Just keep on listening to lot's of different music and don't give up trying to make original music. You will get it eventually. Nobody said it was easy!

Here's a little excerpt of a piece I just started working on tonight. I call it "Birds & Bees".

It's for Mandolin, Guitar, and Banjo. Although it could be written for bowed strings too I suppose. I write for these instruments because I play them.

Birds & Bees

I hope it doesn't sound like anyone else's stuff. I'm writing it entirely from inspiration I got from listening to birds and insects today. Of course, this it's extremely in the raw here and it's only just getting underway, but I'm already getting caught up in it. I'm tired now and have to go to bed. That's a shame because I feel like I'm on a roll.

Tomorrow I'll get up and it'll sound like crap. (ha ha)

I was just getting ready to fly with it too. The problem is keeping all these musical ideas going after the body gives out. I put the little "futter" at the end there to try to remind me where I was headed. I think the banjo needs to break loose right about there.

Well fellas a nice discussion. A good point made by Abracadabra never claim music is copyed. Well i dont copy others, but im not sure if you know how compositions works.
Have you listened to trumpet music by Corelli and Torelli? Bach and Vivaldi? listen to Mozart and Kraus? they used the same themes, Corelli got an idea and used it, then torelli heard it, "stole" the theme and developed it and made it hes own. there are many examples like this, with bach, mozart, beethoven, schubert ++
like beethovens piano concerto 3 or 5 not sure, is very inspired by the mozart concerto in c minor. Beethovens piano sonata pathetique movement 2 sound realy like something schubert would have written.

It happens a lot when you compose in a style, the melodic style. That is why the melodies are simmular, im not encouraging you to "steel" or "copy" but if you want to write 100% in a style, you have to do develope ideas you hear. If you listen to a lot of music you will never know if the melody is eintirely yours. And it properly aint. There is a big chance that something you have heard inspired you to the melody you compose, but what is wrong with that? thats the name of the game!

And i dont copy that is why my music dont sound real barqoue, i want the part of myself in the style. So dont say that if you dont have any evidence. People just get fired up.
This is my personal point of view.

I think maybe you should give this topic some thought. First of all, notice the difference between having the same style and using the same passage of music. Two different things. Even then, I think it's wrong to try and emulate somebody else's style exactly because I think everybody is unique and therefore should try and find their own unique voice. By the way, I do know how composition 'works' (whatever that means - it works differently for everybody).

Since when was the name of the game taking someone else's work and saying it's yours? There are reasons why there's even a law against it!!

Again, context is so important and you have to look at how someone else's theme is developed and moulded into a composer's own work. If it's done well that's fine but if it has just been lazily taken and slapped on a work without much change to it then it's wrong.

If you read my posts carefully you'll find I never made a statement saying that you copied for definite. I even pointed that out in another post. You'll also find me saying that the argument 'all the good melodies have been taken' is nonesense because 'good' is different to everybody and will change according to time. Experiment to find new ways of creating 'good' music without having to use somebody else's themes.

A composer creates. You are not creating if you use somebody else's stuff. You are simply playing their work. If you want to make noises which sound nice to you but have already been composed why don't you call yourself a musician instead of a composer? Because you're not creating, you're just making nice sounding noise already composed by others.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Debates are only useful if both sides are willing to learn from each other and listen in the hope everybody comes out more enlightened. I don't think it's going to happen here. Sorry!

Since when was the name of the game taking someone else's work and saying it's yours? There are reasons why there's even a law against it!!

I don’t know of anyone who even remotely suggested such a thing.

If you think someone did that you should point out the work that you believe has been copied.

Pretty simple really.

This is ridiculous. "S.J. OK!", unless you can offer the piece from which Simen supposedly stole this composition, I'm afraid you'll have to renege on your rather outspoken criticism.

I don't think this piece sounds like it could have been written by anyone but Simen, and it's probably the most harmonically coherent piece of his I've heard.