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Old Apr 5 2008, 10:56 PM

Alexander's Avatar

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Septet

Hello there!

I've just introduced myself at the relevant thread of the forum and I'd like to share with you a relatively recent composition of mine. It's a Septet for flute, oboe, bassoon, double bass, horn, trumpet in Bb and viola.

Septet (revised)


Ok, I finally managed to upload the mp3! The quality isn't very good, but it gives you a good idea of the piece. Enjoy!

Alexandros
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Old Apr 7 2008, 11:27 AM

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First of all, some notational comments:

There are no dynamics throughout the whole piece, which makes it very difficult to understand what you want to hear.

Even if finale plays it as you want it without dynamics, real players won't, so you have to be careful with that =) I am not saying you should have a dynamic under every single note, but you could indicate here and there a few dynamics, or even in words (softly, loudly, as loud as possible etc), if you want to have less dynamics specified.

Another notational issue is the instruments - although you do specify all the instruments in the beginning, later in the first page already you omit the abbreviations of the instruments next to their respective staves, which wouldn't be so problematic if you continued showing all the staves whether they are empty or not, but since you omit some staves, it's hard (in fact, almost impossible) for us to know what instrument are playing at any particular moment (unless when they are all playing together).

There are also some minor mistakes, like clashes of noteheads and beams/stems, as well as forgetting the courtesy accidental when having long notes that last through two measures (like in mm.16-17, where the Eb on the double-bass is held until measure 17, but since 17 is on another system, you should have put a courtesy accidental (in brackets) in the beginning of m.17), and the upside-down fermata on m.23 (double-bass again). Also, on m.35, flute part, you have a quintuplet around 5 notes. I assume this is a mistake? =P

Also, from measure 30 onwards, your bars are so long (in terms of duration and note-values included in them) that you can only fit one measure per system, so maybe you could rethink if you actually need barlines at that section of the piece or not (in terms of strong/weak beats and accent, that is). Taverner does that quite a lot, he has some measured bars, and some unmeasured bars that run for a few pages, and then goes back to measured bars.

Furthermore, in measure 31 (mainly the horn, trumpet and viola parts), you have so many irregular groupings of notes (like triplets, sextuplets, quintuplets etc), that it becomes confusing to the performer whether they have to compress (i.e. play 5 notes in the space of 4) or expand (i.e. play 5 notes in the space of 6) the note values. Which is why you should always write the quintuplets and stuff like " 3:4" (3 in the time of 4), so as to avoid confusion. Your sense of rhythm is very good (or at least, the rhythmic values in the piece as you've written them are very interesting =P ), and I think you should hold on to that.

I really like the chords at m.36 onwards, especially m.40. However, I think that while the horn entry should be loud, the rest of the instruments should come in really softly, and the double-bass should start playing softly while going louder and louder until the beginning of m.41 (the horn could also go softer and softer after the loud entry and after the other instruments have entered). It would create a kind of peculiar sonic cloud that suddenly appears around the horn sound (which seems central to the piece, since it began with the horn playing that A), and then the focus is shifted to the double-bass which has this quasi-soloistic passage in the following measures.


Overall, it looks quite tonal, or rather, modal (although there are some very clear chordal passages). It's neither good nor bad, although I am afraid some people from in here may say that it's "oh, very dissonant" and stuff like that =X I personally think that you didn't start writing this piece on paper or on the piano, because there are absolutely no accidentals (apart from the occasional Eb on the double-bass and much later on the bassoon) up to measure 25, which basically reminds me of my earlier pieces on finale, where I just wrote on finale and thus I rarely used accidentals. Of course, you might have had some of the ideas on the piano (it is equally easy to fall in that trap while playing the piano, if you find it more easy to play the C major/A minor scale than any other key - which is why you should become equally proficient with all the keys, if you're not already). Or, it might have been your choice, I really don't know, I am just guessing here =P But if it's because of the finale/piano trap, then you better do something about it =)

Also, the other reason I suspect this is a finale work is because the rhythms are very strictly around one specific, and they are not freely interchanged (for example, m.31-32, and kind of until 36, among other places). It's like having building blocks and just putting them on top of one another, but that's now how you build a house. Again, if this is 100% your choice, ignore my comment, but if it's not, work on that =)

In general, it doesn't seem to have a specific form, although motifs do travel from one instrument to another (m25-27, m.79-83 etc) although it is quite sectional, and you also have some slower (in terms of pulse and movement) sections, like the "Brilliant" (m.40-41) and the "Majestic" (m.88) sections, which seem to kind of break the flow of the piece and enriching it (or it could be that you found you couldn't write such a lengthy piece like the faster sections, so you added those slow ones to keep going - again, I am just assuming here, and if that's the case, then you should work to develop your development skills and fight this "weakness", but if it's 100% your choice, then ignore this comment =P )

I personally don't find it too bad, although I must admit I found the beginning quite boring in the mp3 file. However, it looks more interesting than it sounds like, which is why you shouldn't rely on finale, especially when writing dynamics I would prefer it if you had included just a bit of bending and quarter-tones, for example in the second measure and fourth measures, when the bassoon plays the same note with the horn, the horn could be bending the notes a quarter tone down, and then up again. I would really love that in the beginning, it would add a lot =D

*sigh* There's my comment I could comment more, but I can't listen to the mp3 (I hate midi ), and I am too tired to keep reading the score Anyway, upload more works of yours. Den yposxomai oti tha grapso toso megala sxolia kai sta alla kommatia, alla tha prospathiso =P

Ta leme! =D
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Old Apr 7 2008, 5:44 PM

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Wow! Thanks for taking the time to listen to my piece and write such a long post with your comments! I really appreciate that! Thanks!

I haven't put any dynamics yet on purpose. I am to present it to my teacher next Saturday and I was thinking of working the dynamics together... On the other hand I could try to work on the dynamics myself... In any case, I understand that the complete lack of dynamics makes it more difficult to properly hear it and comment on it as it is practically something not complete yet and I am sorry for that...

As far as the name of the instruments are concerned, I do have an issue with that. I just don't like any kind of abbreviation or mention of the instruments before the staff. I really need to find a solution on that, because, as you correctly said, it can be misleading and confusing...

Quote:
There are also some minor mistakes, like clashes of noteheads and beams/stems, as well as forgetting the courtesy accidental when having long notes that last through two measures (like in mm.16-17, where the Eb on the double-bass is held until measure 17, but since 17 is on another system, you should have put a courtesy accidental (in brackets) in the beginning of m.17), and the upside-down fermata on m.23 (double-bass again). Also, on m.35, flute part, you have a quintuplet around 5 notes. I assume this is a mistake? =P
Regarding the first notational mistake you mention, I couldn't find any kind of clash. Could you please specify a place on the score where this happens as an example in case I have misunderstood you? I wasn't aware of the other mistakes. I didn't even know what a courtesy accidental is or that the fermata can be upside-down. I shall correct them, though I must say that I prefer the fermata as it is. I like it being closer to the note...

The quintuplet on m. 35 is not a mistake. It's a quintuplet "inside" another quintuplet, so the result is a quintuplet with 6 notes. It's funny that you mention that though, because I didn't like it either and I changed it to a sextuplet.

The fact that at some places only one bar fits per system is kind of problematic indeed, but I don't think the no-bars solution would be ideal for the occasion. Perhaps a landscape orientation of the score instead of portrait would look better...

Quote:
Furthermore, in measure 31 (mainly the horn, trumpet and viola parts), you have so many irregular groupings of notes (like triplets, sextuplets, quintuplets etc), that it becomes confusing to the performer whether they have to compress (i.e. play 5 notes in the space of 4) or expand (i.e. play 5 notes in the space of 6) the note values. Which is why you should always write the quintuplets and stuff like " 3:4" (3 in the time of 4), so as to avoid confusion.
Yes, you are right! I think that apart from the regular triplets or sextuplets there are some more irregular groupings you mentioned that need to be specified. I'll go fix that later, thanks!

Your idea on the dynamics on the chordal passage is really interesting. I still haven't decided anything regarding the dynamics, but I find your idea very interesting. Thanks! The only problem however is that in the particular passage, the horn doesn't "sing" a particularly interesting line so that to put any special emphasis on it...

The piece is tonal, modal, polytonal and polymodal (at the beginning). There is always a tonal center. What makes it dissonant at places is the use of polytonality and complex rhythms apart from the CODA where I've intentionally mixed minor with major (I've heard that first time in Rautavaara's work and I really liked it) to create a specific impression of incompleteness or being lost...

Although I admit that I haven't learned to work on paper, I don't think that this is the reason there are no accidentals at the beginning. I just wanted to be that way. By the way, I am very interested to know how some composers work in the traditional way. I think it would benefit me a lot to learn composing this way...

Quote:
Also, the other reason I suspect this is a finale work is because the rhythms are very strictly around one specific, and they are not freely interchanged (for example, m.31-32, and kind of until 36, among other places). It's like having building blocks and just putting them on top of one another, but that's now how you build a house. Again, if this is 100% your choice, ignore my comment, but if it's not, work on that =)
No, this was a decision of mine. The thing is that before starting writing the piece I decided to create in my mind some relations between the instruments that I would later apply on the score. If you notice the piece's counterpoint is most often "local", it doesn't expand throughout the seven instruments' lines. Even in the more complex passages the counterpoint is built through the different thematic, rhythmical and contrapuntal relations between the instruments. And mainly that's the reason the piece doesn't have a specific form. I don't know why, but I don't really like working in forms. Perhaps this is because of an apparent weakness of mine. Being an inexperienced composed I can't possibly say it's because of this or because of that, but it's something that I like to avoid... I am grateful though that my teacher asks from me to write pieces in different forms every time, because if I want to move from something away, I must first come to know that in full in order to abandon it or change my mind and accept it, if you know what I mean... I do agree that the piece appears sectional, loose in terms of cohesion if you like and personally I believe that this is its main weakness (and perhaps mine as a composer).

Quote:
I personally don't find it too bad, although I must admit I found the beginning quite boring in the mp3 file. However, it looks more interesting than it sounds like, which is why you shouldn't rely on finale, especially when writing dynamics I would prefer it if you had included just a bit of bending and quarter-tones, for example in the second measure and fourth measures, when the bassoon plays the same note with the horn, the horn could be bending the notes a quarter tone down, and then up again. I would really love that in the beginning, it would add a lot =D
Again you have an interesting idea here, but as I have it in my mind, I wouldn't really like that effect...

Thank you for your helpful comments, Laonicos! You were really helpful and it was very kind of you to write such a long post. Thanks!

I am going to correct some things now on the score and perhaps begin working on the dynamics! I'll then upload the finished "product".

Alexander

Y.Γ. Σ'ευχαριστώ και πάλι Λαόνικε και δια της ελληνικής! Τα λέμε!
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Old Apr 9 2008, 9:29 AM

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Hello!

I've just uploaded the revised score and mp3 of my Septet. I corrected some things and added dynamics. Adding the dynamics was quite difficult, but I think I've managed to retain a sufficient balance between the instruments. I'd like to hear other people's opinions as well if you have some time! Thank you!

Alexandros
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Old Apr 11 2008, 12:23 AM

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Your performers will hate you for writing a met marking that goes below 90% of all metronomes
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Old Apr 11 2008, 4:49 AM

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Ok. Second comment

You've fixed some things, but made some other things worse.

Dynamics seem ok, I don't have anything to correct there (assuming that these are the dynamics that you want). I didn't listen to the sound file, because there's little point (the dynamics in the file will not be the same dynamics you'll get from real people playing the piece). Which is also a thing to notice - never write dynamics so that they "sound alright" on Finale/Sibelius, but write them with the instruments in mind. As Qccowboy has said, orchestration is a fundamental aspect of composition, it's not just assigning notes to instruments, and dynamics are an important aspect of orchestration. So, I won't bother listening to the file because I will assume you didn't fall in this trap and you wrote the dynamics as *you* want them, not Finale, thus the Finale midi performance of this piece should not sound like what you want to hear, thus there is no point in hearing it

Anyway, continuing with the score, the instrument abbreviations you've used are absolutely dreadful I don't mean to insult you, but I am afraid they look very confusing and they are even more misleading than they should be. I don't see why you shouldn't use the normal abbreviations that people have been using for the past few hundred years, even if you don't personally like them. Unless you can find a better, more effective, simpler and easier way to indicate which instruments play what, then I would suggest to stick to traditional notation and habbits. Gardner Read in his book on music notation, he says that there is no need for modern innovations in notation unless they make communication between the composer and performer easier (a very good book to read indeed =P )

Now, about tuplets, you seem to have decided to write all tuplets with just a single number. It makes things terribly complicated. For example, m.32, bottom staff, you have sextuplets, quintuplets, then duplets, then quintuplets, then triplets. I assume the sextuplets are to be played in the time of 4, and so are the quintuplets, but what about the tuplet? Is it supposed to be played in the time of one (in which case you should have notated it with half the value), or are they to be played in the time of three? Duplets are rarely used, and they are mostly used in triple metter (an example is Debussy's "Claire de Lune" from his Suite Bergamasque). Triplets are very standard today, but quintuplets and sextuplet are not so standardised, so just for the sake of clarity you should indicate the time in which the 5 or 6 notes are to be played (i.e. 6:4, 5:4 etc).

The beaming of the tuplets is also problematic: you tend to beam quite randomly, if I may say. For example, on the second-from-the-bottom stave of m.32, the notes of the triplet are beamed with a note outside the triplet. You should generally beam all the notes of a tuplet together and avoid beaming them with outside notes, unless necessary. You can always indicate phrasing with slurs (as you have done), so leave beaming for the rhythmic division of each measure. You should also try and beam together the notes of a quintuplet such as that of the top staff of m.33, among lots of examples throughout the score.

Also, regarding triplets, you have absolutely no reason to write the held note on measure 12 of the bassoon as you have You indicate a duration of 7 quarters (which is pretty straight-forward as a whole-note and a dotted half-note) as a half-note tied to an eighth note tied to a triplet consisting of a quarter-note tied to an eighth note, which in turn are tied to another eighth note tied to a dotted half-note D= I assume this is a mistake that has been overlooked? =P You do this kind of unnecessary tying in other places too, such as m.10 of the horn, m.13 of the double-bass and m.14 of the flute (among nuuuuumerous other appearances throughout the score) - please do avoid that, since it only makes it harder for the players to read. No, in fact, players will ask "why did you write it this way?" and you'll say "um.. I don't know, it's a mistake", so they'll say "well, if you don't bother with your score, neither will I" and they'll just walk away =P

About the "clashes" I mentioned in the previous post, well, I can see them in places like m.81, flute part (oh, the bracket of the second quintuplet of m.80, trumpet part, must *not*extend to m.81, because it complicates things quite a lot - the performer may think that the quintuplet includes a note from the next measure, which it doesn't), m.18 oboe part (the notes after the triplet are very close together), same measure double-bass part (the natural sign touches the previous notehead), m.30, trumpet part (the crescendo falls directly on the slur).

Moreover, you mix french and english terms ("a bit accented" on m.30, and "à dehors" directly above "but with emphasis" on m.40-41 - I think you mean "en dehors" which roughly translates to "prominently"; it literally translates to "outwards") . Personally, I'd stick to the Italian terms for the standardised concepts (like crescendo, diminuendo, "poco a poco" etc), and I'd use English terms for everything else (although someone could use German or French terms wherever I'd use English ones). Even if I used a French term here and there (but *only* if it made it easier for the performers to understand more easily what I want to say), then I would never mix terms in one sentence, like you've done in m.82, double-bass and bassoon parts: "un poco à dehors" :X You should either write "un poco prominente", or "un peu en dehors". But mixing up languages in one phrase is really confusing =P Lastly, you write "cuivré" in the last page. As far as I know, "cuivre" is French for "copper", so I assume "cuivré" means "coppered"? :X Unless you meant "brassy", in which case you should just use the term "brassy"..

I really wonder why you're using French terms. You told me you want to study in Leipzig, so I assume you speak German alright, so why do you use French if you speak German better than you do French? Or even use English? It's not as if French will add "class" to your pieces =P The main point is communication and functionality, not the looks of a score (well, not in most cases anyway), don't forget that =)


Also, gms5287 is right, you're using very low metronome markings. I don't think many non-digital metronomes can go below 40, 32 at the most. You can always double the amount of beats per minute and halve the durational value of a metronome marking. Just because your piece is in 4/2, you don't have to write the metronome markings in terms of half-notes. You can indicate them in terms of quarter, or even eighth notes (if it's too slow).
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Old Apr 11 2008, 6:17 AM

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Once again, thanks for your detailed comments! You too gms5287!

I am going to change the tempo markings, because you are right. It's way too low, lol!

Dynamics were written with consideration of the real instruments. I had no interest how they sounded in Sibelius. The type of "abbreviations" that I used was borrowed from a book with a collection of orchestral compositions that I have which I quite liked. What I omitted though, was to paste the name of the instruments on the following systems and staves as well which I'll probably do. I think then it won't be misleading.

Sextuplets are two triplets in one, quintuplets are five notes in place of four (for example a quintuplet of quavers replace four quavers. If I wanted a quintuplet to replace 6 notes I would have written the tuplet as 5:6) and the duplet is two dotted quavers. I wrote it that way, because it looks better. To tell you the truth, I've rarely seen ratios instead of numbers been written on tuplets. I've only seen ratios been written only when there is no other conventional way to write the tuplet, as in several tuplets in the septet (9:7, 15:16).

My beaming follows the phrases of the melody and act as micro-metres (I don't know if that exists, but it's why I use the irregular beaming). That's why there are some clashes in places which I don't find necessarily bad. It appears frequently in the music literature of 20th century actually.

Lol, you are right concerning the mixing of terms. I just write the term I want in the language that I know how it is said. I can't speak German very well yet so I don't write anything in German (I've only been learning the language for a year). Cuivré means brassy, correct. It's written that way in Samuel Adler's orchestration so I thought not to change it in English.

I'll upload soon the revised score. Thanks again for your comments!

Alexandros

Edit: I forgot to reply to your comment regarding held notes. They are notated that way so that I can indicate where exactly the crescendo or diminuendo begins. I couldn't find any other way to do it...
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Old Apr 11 2008, 6:44 AM

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I uploaded the score with some things fixed. I decided to use the french language to write most of the music terms (exceptions: cresc. , dim. , simile, sub. , rit. , accel.) and copied the abbreviations of the instrument's names to the next systems and staves.

Thank you for helping me improve the score!

Alexandros

Edit: I forgot to add that I also changed the tempo marking wherever it was too low for most metronomes.
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Old Apr 11 2008, 9:25 AM

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Great! If you're using finale, you don't have to copy them - with the default settings it will do the abbreviations automatically for you.

May I ask why you're using french terms instead of german or english?
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Old Apr 11 2008, 9:49 AM

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Quote:
Great! If you're using finale, you don't have to copy them - with the default settings it will do the abbreviations automatically for you.
Sibelius does that too, but I don't like the way it looks.

I don't know German very well yet. I'll eventually write all the musical terms in this language though. For now, I either choose French or English even though I sometimes go multilingual as well which is obviously wrong and I thank you for pointing that out (this happens mostly from instinct)! When there aren't many music terms used, but there are a few cresc. dim. rit. indications I write those other few terms in Italian. I do have a preference to write the tempo markings either in French or English and it'll take me some time to get used to writing them in German... I like the way some French words sound (like lent or tranquille) and that's why I prefer to use it instead of Italian or English. Whenever I choose English, it's because they are more understandable for most people.

As you can see I am kind of undecided concerning what language to use...

Alexandros
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