sibelius 5 "vs" cubase as a sequencer

Hi, this is my first post in this forum...

I'm also new to using computers for music (though not with music itself, I'm a Jazz saxophonist of some ability and experience).

I have trial versions of Finale and Sibelius, as well as an actual, full copy of Cubase (SX3). All of these are new to me...

I've used dedicated sequencers before (e.g., AKAI MPC 2000, Alesis MMT8).

I read and write standard music notation (I'm a music school graduate [of some time ago...]). I've played with Dizzy Gillespie....

This means that my preferred methods of inputting music into a computer are by notation (mouse or piano keyboard) or by playing (saxophone or piano keyboard) (meaning, primarily, that I want to see 5 lines and 4 spaces when inputting and not something else).

The Cubase interface is completely nonsensical (to me) in this regard. It appears to be made for non-musicians who don't read music (kindly correct me if I'm wrong, but why would anything other that a standard staff be necessary for someone who knows how to read music?). Further, its notation feature appears to be secondary (i.e., it functions only AFTER music is inputted via keyboard), as well as rather limited.

Sibelius appears to be very easily understood, "musician-thinking," user-friendly, and intuitive. Finale appears to be somewhat less hip in the above particulars, but does, however, offer some cool features that Sibelius does not (e.g., plug-ins, inputting via wind instruments [does this really work? Can I play my cheap Coltrane imitation and have Finale transcribe it? What would Ira say?]).

So it appears that I need to purchase one or the other of said notation programs (F or S), which leads me to my questions:

1. Which (F, S or both) permits the importing of notation files into a sequencer program (e.g., Cubase)? Is either F or S superior in this regard? The reason for the question is that I can envision writing in F or S and then hearing the composition playback in C...

2. Conversely, which sequencer program (e.g., Sonar, Cubase, etc.) accomplishes said task most easily (or does it matter which sequencer program I get - are they all the same in this particular)?

3. Do any sequencer programs (e.g., Pro Tools) have full fledged notation features, thereby obviating the need for a F or S (I assume "no," else why would F or S exist...?)

4. I further assume that there exists no "integrated," combined program that does both sequencing and notation at a high level (kindly correct me if I'm wrong...).

5. My primary purpose is (I think) probably similar to most of yours: to actually hear on the computer what my composition/arrangement actually sounds like (within reason), as opposed to creating a sequenced "thing" which doesn't require actual, breathing musicians to perform. Ultimately, the composition/arrangements are going to be played by my band, not by a computer. However, I would like the computer version to sound sufficiently plausible for practice purposes.

The sounds available on the F or S trial downloads are pretty awful; I also assume that the available VST plug-ins correct this to an extent (again, kindly correct me if I'm wrong).

OK; thanks for your help!

Peace,

- Jeff

1. Both. "All" you have to do is save your score from Finale or Sibelius into a midi file and import into your sequencer.

2. Both are somewhat simmilar. The point of the sequencer is to be able to make more "alive" and "realistic" renderings. So you will be adding sounds, through VSTs and stuff, which is ultimately the job of a sequencer. In regards to that all different sequencers have different ways of communicating, and some have weaknesses and strengths.

3. No they don't. I know finale and Cubase pretty well and there's absolutely no way of comparing the two in notation features. It does depend on what you mean by "score", if you mean some simple piano score, which could arguable be done in a sequencer, or some complex work for... orchestra for example. But the fact still stands: notation software notate and sequencers... sequence...

4. NOTION could be one, but it doesn's seem that it caught on ultimately. Finale seems to be second with the humanize feature, which makes playback much more realistic but it still misses ALL audio features (sound design, etc).

5. If this is what you want then I think that Finale (or a bit less Sibelius) will be enough. If you don't want the final version to be the one created on your computer (as in my case where my clients are getting the files I create in my computer), then you're fine with Finale/Sibelius and GPO. I would recommend you visit the garritan website (Garritan Home Page) and see what GPO is capable off. Many people use it with Finale and it seems to create rather realistic results, at least for personal enjoyment.

Hope it helps.

Nikolas

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Nikolas!

I ordered the trial version of Notion (they use snail mail and not downloads). I've made my initial attempts with the Sibelius and Finale trials; Sibelius has the edge as far as being intuitive and user-friendly (at least at first blush). I also like the "Navigator" feature; used to move around the score easily.

I can see why both S and F have their fans and I look forward to experimenting with both on some level.

The next question is whether scores created in S can be imported into F (my guess is "maybe") or N (I guess "no"). The "human playback" feature sounds interesting and useful for practice.

I'll check out the Garritan site; thanks...

I'm surprised that a more integrated program doesn't exist... It would seem logical that it do so (then again, maybe not, at least if one considers who is using what...)

I'll let you folks know what conclusions I come up with; hopefully they'll have some value here...

Do you (or anyone here) have a preference for using these programs in Windows XP or Vista? I assume most of you use Mac, but I have an HP (at least for now...)

Thanks again,

- Jeff

Both notation programs are good imho. They both can end up with brilliant results. As far as notation goes! I happen to use finale, that's all!

And I'm on a PC and no plans of changing. And I use Cubase, as well!

The program, that you mention should exist, doesn't exist for a very good reason. A good sequencer goes beyond notation, and into audio. For example, I have a habbit of mixing in audio. with the little fade ins and outs, the crossfades, the easy change of volume, tweaking, on the fly plug-ins, etc. And to further sound design, all of which are in the heart of every sequencer. There isn't a midi only sequencer, but there are sequencers which are better in audio rather than midi (Pro-tools come to mind! ). In short, a sequencer will have extended audio capabilities, which is what separates notation and sequence!

Both S and F, work in xp and Vista as far as I know (the latest editions, at least). I know that Finale (unofficially) works well in Vista in previous editions, but it's not supported by Makemusic (I checked their website). No idea for S.

I see... As long as notation-created scores can be imported into a sequencer, then I assume that I shouldn't be concerned with how well the notation program performs the sequencing task.... I think

I suppose you have to have a more or less "finished product" before importing - I assume the notation components of a sequencer aren't up to snuff as far as altering subtleties....

Hopefully I'll figure enough of this stuff out to actually write a concerto for tenor saxophone and orchestra.....

Hopefully I'll get a gig at Ronnie Scotts as well!

- Jeff

No, not really.

I always import the midi files, without any dynamics, or tempo markings. I find it MUCH easier to tweak velocity and tempo inside Cubase, rather than Finale.

Good luck with your concerto.

But really, if your final product is not to be heard from YOUR computer, then you shouldn't really need Cubase even. Finale (and Sibelius) both can produce a... nice result with simple samples, and easy to use features, that will be enough to give you an idea on how it sounds.

Well, I'll order the Garritan big band for either F or S, as the case may be (unless, of course, N blows them away...)

The playback function will also be useful for conveying the music to my band members, so the better it sounds, well, the better...

I already have a full version of Cubase SX3, with the upgrade to Cubase 4 on the way. But --- wow --- it looks confusing!

Of course, I could always get a gig for myself and the laptop if this stuff turns out to sound really good... I'm not sure how I'd feel about it from an artistic standpoint, though....

For the moment, I'm writing some small group projects with the view to a CD. The concerto will start after that!

It takes a bit of effort to be able to produce usable renderings, apart from personal pleasure from a computer. From personal experience, I find that Finale is inadequate still to produce such results, Sibelius as well. I am still using cubase extensively in all my professional endeavours!

It takes quite a bit getting used to things, but I do find it rewarding. I don't have an orchestra locked up in my basement to be able to have the pallete I want, when I want it, so samples and my computer come in great aid!

If you do decide on Notion, I use it and am fairly familiar with how it works. I would get the free demo and at least try it out....I've used it for about a year and am happy with both the playback and how to input notation. If by chance you want to use realtime input with a keyboard, don't get it, it sucks for that. I painfully put in each note at a time with the mouse...I've just gotten used to it...and it's good for that way at least. NOTION Music software for composition, songwriting, notation, performance, teaching, learning

Vince

EDIT: 400th post yay me! I'm seasoned

Originally Posted by thatguy

EDIT: 400th post yay me! I'm seasoned

Heh...

around 1500 and I remain freelancer.. WTF?!?!?!