Are these parallels thirds/sixths legal?

My experience of orchestrating baroque counterpoint is fairly limited, and this represents the start of my first attempt to compose a large scale orchestral composition in the late baroque idiom. Other than the fact that the oboes are too low, I'd like advice on the parallel motion of this vordersatz I've written, with a view to extending it to a full ritornello.

From an uneducated standpoint, it doesn't sound dissonant or out of place.

parallel thirds/sixths should never be a problem. Only fifths and octaves.

Originally Posted by Dev

parallel thirds/sixths should never be a problem. Only fifths and octaves.

Well, there was never a "rule" against them, but that doesn't mean they are appropriate in every music. Leading voices parallel to each other for extended passages goes against contrapunctual principles regardless of the interval between those voices. You probably won't find parallel sixths or thirds for extended periods in a Palestrina motet, even if two voices certainly can run parallel in thirds/sixths for a couple of notes.

I don't really know much about baroque orchestration either, but I've seen quite extended passages of parallel sixths and thirds, namely in concerti grossi which often were orchestrated after the motto "all available instruments play the same few voices as loudly as possible" But of course also in orchestrations more refined than that.

This passage for the first and second violins, for example, is out of Händel's concerto grosso in B flat major (op. 3 no. 2):

Something like that is -very- typical.

So no, I don't think those parallel thirds and sixths in your piece are a problem at all.

Great! I'll crack on then. I think this post mainly constituted compositional procrastination, but it's worth considering the implications of having lots of parallel motion in parts.

Definitely, for reasons already pointed out.

Nothing you have here so far is at all problematic.

I find paralell 3rds/6ths useful for fast notes, while contrary motion sounds better for slow notes (at least for me).
I don't know much about orchestration, but I think long run of paralell 3rd/6ths/8ves/unisons are ok, if their purpose is to emphasize or enrich the main melody or to make the counterpoint less dense (so easier for the listener).

So there is no problem with your composition.

Máté

Hi,

parallel were never forbidden. Fifth and octaves are because they affect the independence of each voice in the counterpoint.

Your composition is very nice though!


Rolan

if i remember correctly too. Dependign on the orchestration parrallel octaves arnt to big a deal. Especially if the two instrumetns have a different timbre or come from different families.

Remember writing for each orchestration has its differences.

For example writing for Brass is completely different from writing for Strigns due to timbre and different limits that the performers have.

Just my two cents.

parallel octaves or unisons, for what strict counterpoint is, just "kill" voices, that is..

if two playes on the same instrument or on different ones, play the same notes in paralle 8th or unison, it is pratically just one voice that you hear, even if there are 2 instruments, and instead, if one uses other intervalls that are consonants and musically more intresting like 3rds or 6ths then you hear the two parts that play good together and that means more voices heard...

not that octave or unisons cant be applied, of course they help define a melodic line better, and also reinforce it.. but if u have just 3 instruments, and 2 of them do just octaves, then what u hear is basically 2 voices... that's what i meant.

but anyway octaves or unisons are better sounding than 4ths and 5ths because those are like octaves...

...in the sense that they are resting places, where the harmony is so consonant that you ear doesnt have much stimulation, so going for parallel 5th or 4ths doesnt give much, since they just go from a resting place to another, and u just get nothing intresting musically... so better the 3ds and 6ths that have this particular character that makes them more intresting to hear than 5ths and 4ths, even if u have some them here and there...

hope i made sense here again.

to go back to your piece... for what concernes it, well, i think there's nothing bad... you just doubled other instrumetns to give a different nuance and to give more importance to the themes. nothing wrong with that.