A thread to politely discuss the merits of jazz

Please don't hate me for starting this thread. There are so many other reasons to hate me. The reason I am starting this thread is because I made the claim that "Jazz musicians pretend that Jazz is much more complicated than it actually is." This pissed of Robin, and he told me to make a thread so that he could educate me.

I am ready to learn.

A background note:
I was in a jazz band for a couple of years and we played gigs around town. I would not claim to be a good jazz pianist, but I at least have some experience playing jazz. Obviously, this is not nearly as much experience as Robin, but since one can have an opinion about music they have never played, I think I am perfectly qualified to have an opinion about music that I have played

I'm going to guess that he is going to start listing off concepts in Jazz that I haven't heard of. But let's keep in mind that this is doesn't prove anything - my experience with jazz is not necessarily relevant to my claim. Also, i believe that there are concepts that exist in Jazz which are very complex. But my claim is that Jazz musicians would have us believe that there are ideas of extreme complexity which they are processing at any moment when playing a tune, but I would argue that most of Jazz is just deducing the mode, picking a scale, and mimicking motifs from either the tune or from others' solos.

And that is where, I am about to be told, I am completely and utterly ignorant.

I'm ready.

Wow.

A couple quick, possibly irrelevant points comparing classical music to Jazz:

• A much greater percentage of great jazz artists have been notoriously doped up, in which condition your intellectual capabilities to process complex thought are severely hindered.
• The progression of Classical music has been in the hands of the smartest elites in society. Jazz is derived from the various musical stylings of poor, uneducated people.
• How can something which is improvised by nature be as complex as something which is highly premeditated and worked on for a very long period of time?

Double wow.

Because suckiness IS a word.



P.S. You have provided absolutely nothing to back up any of your ridiculous claims. So, uh, I didn't read it all.
Sorry, but if you want to attempt to disparage an entire genre and culture, you have to provide a source of some sort.

Also, Jesus hates you.

Originally Posted by Dan Gilbert

I'm going to guess that he is going to start listing off concepts in Jazz that I haven't heard of. But let's keep in mind that this is doesn't prove anything

Actually, it does. It proves that you don't know enough about jazz to argue that it isn't complex, and so you don't know about the complexity involved in the genre.

my claim is that Jazz musicians would have us believe that there are ideas of extreme complexity which they are processing at any moment when playing a tune,

Are you saying that every classical tune is incredibly complex?

but I would argue that most of Jazz is just deducing the mode, picking a scale, and mimicking motifs from either the tune or from others' solos.

I would argue that a great deal of classical music is also based off of scales and motifs.

Originally Posted by Dan Gilbert

[*]A much greater percentage of great jazz artists have been notoriously doped up, in which condition your intellectual capabilities to process complex thought are severely hindered.

They were doped up every minute of their lives? I didn't know that.

[*]The progression of Classical music has been in the hands of the smartest elites in society. Jazz is derived from the various musical stylings of poor, uneducated people.

The amount of money you have and your class has absolutely nothing to do with your musical ability.

[*]How can something which is improvised by nature be as complex as something which is highly premeditated and worked on for a very long period of time?

Classical music, and music in general, originated out of improvisation. Remember that fugue, thought to be one of the more complex forms, was also an improvisatory practice. Add to that that many pieces of classical music are just improvisations written down, and your point makes little sense.

since when complicated things are "better"?
Since when opinions are actual facts (this refers to the word "better" in my post).

I realise, Dan, your will to educate yourself and I'm not the one to educate you, since I know nothing of jazz. But I don't see any reason to be 'upset' about a while genre, or a whole world. It's like hating every single American, and we know that this is bullshit, don't we?

Nik: I'm not upset at all. It's just a friendly debate, and I realize my opinion is kind of extreme. I don't hate jazz or think it's stupid, I just hate listening to jazz myself and I think that like many things, people pretend it's more complicated than it is. And this argument is solely about complexity, because that is how this thread was spawned.

Originally Posted by Voce

Actually, it does. It proves that you don't know enough about jazz to argue that it isn't complex, and so you don't know about the complexity involved in the genre.

Are you saying that every classical tune is incredibly complex?

I would argue that a great deal of classical music is also based off of scales and motifs.

1. But my position doesn't hinge on the fact that I know everything there is to know about jazz and that there isn't that much to know. Robin has to demonstrate that musicians consistently apply complex knowledge and theory to their performances, not that said knowledge and theory exists.

2. No, but that doesn't have to be true to validate what I am saying.

3. Classical music may be based on scales and motifs, but as I said, it's highly premeditated, and every note is there for a reason. I would argue that in a situation where one has a week to write a piece, the outcome will be completely intentional. If one has to come up with a minute of music as he is playing, then it's more likely one will throw notes into place because they fit within the scale or mode, and not because that is the perfect note.