A thread to politely discuss the merits of jazz

Originally Posted by Ferkungamabooboo

99% of jazz played is bop-based; its just that it's the easiest to classify, doesn't sound too dated, and has been "gentrified" only so much.

Bebop came around in the 1940s. Jazz started (in its earliest forms in the 1890s with Rag Time) so to say that jazz is 99% be-bop based is incorrect. There is still 50 years of jazz to examine before Bebop came around. Much of what jazz came after Bebop is either related to Bop or a direct move in the opposite direction- Cool Jazz. Swing music, which came before Bebop is very different but Bop carried some things over- which is natural to any art form evolving and growing over time.

Originally Posted by Nathan Madsen

Bebop came around in the 1940s. Jazz started (in its earliest forms in the 1890s with Rag Time) so to say that jazz is 99% be-bop based is incorrect. There is still 50 years of jazz to examine before Bebop came around. Much of what jazz came after Bebop is either related to Bop or a direct move in the opposite direction- Cool Jazz. Swing music, which came before Bebop is very different but Bop carried some things over- which is natural to any art form evolving and growing over time.

Yeah, no serious arguments there. But what is played now is largely bop-based. There are pockets of contemporary - NY's soho, which caters more to avant; New Orleans's Frenchman St, which is pretty poppy at times (astral projekt, tony dagradi); but the vast majority outside of specific locales is largely bop based.

I personally think the biggest problem in Jazz is that after a point, it jsut breaks down into contemporary (classical) music - Rova Quartet is a good example, I feel - or rock. At some level, it eats itself, and if it stays as "jazz" then its derivative.

Originally Posted by Nathan Madsen

Corbin- I think Justin's point (and I don't mean to speak for him) is that today's modern classical performers do not look at cadenzas the same way as they did back when cadenzas were mostly improvised. Sure- some performers today do still improvise their cadenzas but I still don't think that equates to the same about of volume and frequency improv in jazz occurs (particularly in the jazz combo realm).

Yes Nathan. That's what I mean to say.

Originally Posted by Justin Tokke

No it's not. Improv outside of Jazz has only caught on in the last half-century. Last I checked, Beethoven, Tchaik, Wagner, Mahler, had no improv in them. I do not need to know how to improvise be a classical musician.

Really?
Last I checked, all those composers could improvise while they were alive, and they could do it well.
I'm pretty sure some of their pieces were written-down improvisations, too.

Originally Posted by Voce

Really?
Last I checked, all those composers could improvise while they were alive, and they could do it well.
I'm pretty sure some of their pieces were written-down improvisations, too.

Taken from the Webster Dictionary:

im·pro·vise
Pronunciation:
\ˈim-prə-ˌvīz also ˌim-prə-ˈ\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
im·pro·vised; im·pro·vis·ing
Etymology:
French improviser, from Italian improvvisare, from improvviso sudden, from Latin improvisus, literally, unforeseen, from in- + provisus, past participle of providēre to see ahead — more at provide
Date:
1826

transitive verb 1 : to compose, recite, play, or sing extemporaneously 2 : to make, invent, or arrange offhand 3 : to make or fabricate out of what is conveniently on hand <improvise a meal>

com·pose
Pronunciation:
\kəm-ˈpōz\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
com·posed; com·pos·ing
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French composer, from Latin componere (perfect indicative composui) — more at compound
Date:
15th century

transitive verb1 a: to form by putting together : fashion <a committee composed of three representatives — Current Biography> b: to form the substance of : constitute <composed of many ingredients> c: to produce (as columns or pages of type) by composition2 a: to create by mental or artistic labor : produce <compose a sonnet> b (1): to formulate and write (a piece of music) (2): to compose music for3: to deal with or act on so as to reduce to a minimum <compose their differences>4: to arrange in proper or orderly form5: to free from agitation : calm, settle <composed himself>intransitive verb: to practice composition

The difference in the two meanings is that one is done off hand or on the spot- while one is a process that allows for drafting and revisions. Last time I check, you can't rewind the time-space continuum and rework an improvised solo- so while composers are often good at improvising their compositions are not written down improvisations. They're compositions that have gone through a variety of drafts and revisions. The two words are not synonymous and to treat them as such means you're misusing at least one of the words.

Originally Posted by Nathan Madsen

The two words are not synonymous and to treat them as such means you're misusing at least one of the words.

Fair enough.
That still doesn't change the fact that they could improvise, when they weren't busy writing.

Do you have proof of that? Because as far as I'm concerned, all that matters about Beethoven is his music.

Originally Posted by Justin Tokke

Do you have proof of that? Because as far as I'm concerned, all that matters about Beethoven is his music.

Improvisation isn't music...?

J.S. Bach, while he was alive, was little known as a composer, and his works were criticized for being dense and old-fashioned — but he was renowned as the greatest improviser on the organ in Europe. A famous French organist once came to town to compete against him, and, hearing him improvise while warming up, promptly left town. Bach put improvisation skills at the center of his teaching.

Facts About Improvisation The Daily Improvisation

Originally Posted by Justin Tokke

Do you have proof of that? Because as far as I'm concerned, all that matters about Beethoven is his music.

I improv all the time...
I've done it with banjo players... Erhu players... Percussion players even...

My roommates banging on my keyboard...

Yeah...

I play Telemann, Beethoven, Penderecki, Hindemith, Sibelius....

Yet... I still improv.. listen to Britney Spears.. the Scissor Sisters...
High school musical... and guess what??

I'm an amazing violist and composer.

Don't limit your musical experience.. it makes you dumb.