A thread to politely discuss the merits of jazz

Why God why

Originally Posted by JonSlaughter

One thing you have to understand about jazz is that there are a lot, and I mean a lot, of sorry ass jazz players. Because jazz is "free" just about anyone can call themselves a jazz musician but there are actually very few true ones.

Second, jazz is relatively sophisticated musical form when compared to most others but few actually understand it on the level its meant to be.

Third, there are many sub-genre's of jazz and not all are created equal.

Fourth, Jazz is mainly an improvisatory art form and therefore its much more difficult to compose good sounding pieces for most people. Specially since you usually have several other guys improvising at the same time(of course around a common framework so it doesn't get too out of control).

Having said that I think the whole point of jazz is to find that "moment" when everything comes together in some orgasmic musical expression of human creativity. Its kinda like a bunch of monkeys typing on type writers hoping that they will type something good but never do.

I think if you understand it from the context that 99% of jazz musicians suck ass then you'll have a good understanding. Most people who can't make any good music become jazz musicians so they can just play scales and pretend to be hip because they know they can make this substitution here and its "jazzy" or play this mode over this chord and its "cool". (in reality they have no idea how to make good music though)

I'm being a bit harsh though... it's only like 97% or 98% of them that are like this.

Bless your soul! You hit it right on the nose!

Originally Posted by JonSlaughter

...Specially since you usually have several other guys improvising at the same time(of course around a common framework so it doesn't get too out of control). ...

Not unless your Mingus. Haitian Fight Song anyone?

Originally Posted by JonSlaughter

...if you understand it from the context that 99% of jazz musicians suck ass then you'll have a good understanding. Most people who can't make any good music become jazz musicians so they can just play scales and pretend to be hip because they know they can make this substitution here and its "jazzy" or play this mode over this chord and its "cool". (in reality they have no idea how to make good music though)

I'm being a bit harsh though... it's only like 97% or 98% of them that are like this.

Not true.

I think jazz is even more discerning and difficult to succeed in. We don't tolerate charlatans and I think you're confusing amateur 'jam session' players with serious pros.

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Originally Posted by Dan Gilbert

...this argument is solely about complexity, because that is how this thread was spawned.

I just came across this...

Solely about complexity? While jazz can be complicated, it can also be deliciously simple. This can also be said of classical...or any other music.

How does "complexity" have anything to do with it?

Originally Posted by robinjessome

Okay, first of all, let's all lay off the Danny-bashing for a moment. He has expressed a genuine desire to understand, and I can respect that - so should you. Let's be gentle with Dan, because I know he's trying and nothing he says is doen with any malicious intent...

SO...my opinion: Jazz offers by far the most room for personal expression and requires the most dedication and study to be performed well.

I won't mention any complex techniques, cause you don't care. Jazz is complex - there's A LOT going on. You're a little off base with your suspicion that jazz musicians are conspiring against you to keep the music from you. With some attentive listening, and an open mind-set - jazz becomes very simple.

Dan, I'm not sure what it is specifically that turns you off jazz; is it the idea of improvisation? The feel? The harmony? The lifestyle?

I'll think about this a little more...this is perhaps too broad an issue for me to address directly.

Hokay, I will TRY to respond to all of you in time, but you have to understand that it's going to be difficult. Anyways, ROBIN:

Can't argue with the "your opinion" segment there, because that's all very subjective. I can agree that it allows more freedom for the PERFORMER than classical music, but that's one of my problems with it - it leaves the design element in the hand of the masses, rather than the few elite.

I'm not sure I can pinpoint what turns me off of jazz. It's just not pleasing to my ears, and I feel like I am hearing exactly the same wall of sound no matter what track off which album is playing. I know from playing in a jazz band that "wall of sound" is something which is avoided, but I don't feel like there is any variety, despite the fact that if I listened closely, I could pinpoint the elements that are different. I feel like I am hearing the same sounds over and over and over again. I get it, a whole tone scale sounds such and such a way over this particular chord, but so what? I feel like there are no climaxes, no points of interest, it's just a smoothly flowing wall of sound.

But again, my point is simply that performers exaggerate the complexity and nuance. But then again, I never said this was NOT true of classical music, or of other types of music. Everyone wants to glorify their own work. I just think this is particularly true of jazz.

Originally Posted by thatguy

Why God why

It's because you touch yourself at night. NEXT!

Originally Posted by JonSlaughter

One thing you have to understand about jazz is that there are a lot, and I mean a lot, of sorry ass jazz players. Because jazz is "free" just about anyone can call themselves a jazz musician but there are actually very few true ones.

Second, jazz is relatively sophisticated musical form when compared to most others but few actually understand it on the level its meant to be.

Third, there are many sub-genre's of jazz and not all are created equal.

Fourth, Jazz is mainly an improvisatory art form and therefore its much more difficult to compose good sounding pieces for most people. Specially since you usually have several other guys improvising at the same time(of course around a common framework so it doesn't get too out of control).

Having said that I think the whole point of jazz is to find that "moment" when everything comes together in some orgasmic musical expression of human creativity. Its kinda like a bunch of monkeys typing on type writers hoping that they will type something good but never do.

I think if you understand it from the context that 99% of jazz musicians suck ass then you'll have a good understanding. Most people who can't make any good music become jazz musicians so they can just play scales and pretend to be hip because they know they can make this substitution here and its "jazzy" or play this mode over this chord and its "cool". (in reality they have no idea how to make good music though)

I'm being a bit harsh though... it's only like 97% or 98% of them that are like this.

First - Ok, so say we are only talking about the ones that you personally approve of.

Second - Can you demonstrate that it is more sophisticated than any other form of music? Are you saying that it is more sophisticated than country music? And if so, then I'll play devil's advocate and say "Nope." Demonstrate how it is more complex - as a country advocate, I'm going to argue that there are millions of tiny nuances in the performance of country music which aren't apparent to your untrained ears.

Third - If you suspect that I'm just referring to the subgenres that you consider inferior, you will have to be more specific.

Fourth - I think you are just describing why you like jazz, and not how it is really more complex than meets the eye. Yah, coordinating your improvisation is a challenge, but is it really that complex? Isn't it just developing a sense of how not to step on other people's parts?

Originally Posted by blm22

wtf, jazz is very complicated, what the hell is your problem.

I was dropped as a child, probably. No, when I was born, my mom had terrible aim and shot me right into a bedpost. That's it.

Originally Posted by Dan Gilbert

I'm not sure I can pinpoint what turns me off of jazz. It's just not pleasing to my ears, and I feel like I am hearing exactly the same wall of sound no matter what track off which album is playing. I know from playing in a jazz band that "wall of sound" is something which is avoided, but I don't feel like there is any variety, despite the fact that if I listened closely, I could pinpoint the elements that are different. I feel like I am hearing the same sounds over and over and over again. I get it, a whole tone scale sounds such and such a way over this particular chord, but so what? I feel like there are no climaxes, no points of interest, it's just a smoothly flowing wall of sound.

Perhaps you just haven't found a jazz you like - there's so much out there.

If you're not hearing climaxes, points of interest or anything to perk you r ears, then you're just not hearing it...simple as that. You're either too embroiled in the criticisms and negative things you don't like and can't hear past them to the passionate and emotional music; or you're just listening to contrite shit with few creative points to be found.

...........

I'm curious, what have you listened to? There's some powerful music out there - It'd be a shame you missed it for a misconceived prejudice against wankers. Let's get away from this whole 'COMPLEXITY' or 'SOPHISTICATION' argument.... it's weak, and lame.

Complexity is often a hindrance...

YouTube - John Coltrane - Alabama

Hear that? Pure, raw, honest music..... hear it? No? Maybe?

Originally Posted by robinjessome

Okay,

"Jazz is just deducing the mode, picking a scale, and mimicking motifs from either the tune or from others' solos."

I suspect this stems from your relatively limited listening experience...Have you dug into your dad's record collection yet? I can't disagree with the above statement in many cases - especially when dealing with younger players

That's how you learn to play...you study. You lean you scales and modes, and the relationships between them (I'm trying to keep to laymans terms here). You transcribe the masters, you learn the tunes, you memorize common patterns (licks)... The problem arises when the players feels this is satisfactory and that proficiency with these basics constitutes mastery of the genre. The university jazz education scene is laden with morons who think like this. Even many prominent professionals - heralded are heavies - are prone to flying on autopilot.

I agree with you - unthinking, unlistening robots are a bad thing. YOU however, have likely not been exposed to enough SERIOUS jazz to be able to tell the difference.

I assure you Dan, that true masters of jazz have surpassed the mere technical requirements and assimilated, ingrained and molded the skills into their own personal voice. This is the ultimate goal of any jazz player - to be unique and individual...and to play and interact with other uniquely individual voices.

ALSO, we're talking about a HUGE friggin umbrella encompassing a vast genre. Jazz means so many different things, to so many different people... but that's yet another discussion.

Also, if it's the idea of improvisation that bothers you (as I suspect it might), don't dismiss the entire practice of jazz composition. You're talking as if jazz is entirely made-up and lacks the premeditation and forethought of it's boxy cousin (boxy...square...classical...get it?). Not so - even when discussing improvisation, as others have mentioned. Solos are as logical and intricate as any 'composed' music - and jazz incorporates many of the same principles of composition as classical.

...

More to come...

Well, you are just telling me that there are many musicians who validate my statement, and a select few who don't. But you still aren't telling me what it is that these select few are doing which is so complex and genius.

As far as improvisation goes, how can a solo be as complex as premeditated composed music if it is composed on the spot? You are just telling me it IS, but one important part of my opinion is that I really doubt it. As a musician and master of a particular instrument, wouldn't you be more inclined to play the notes which fit under the fingers? You are playing notes which you have never practiced, so they have to be simple enough so that you can play them perfectly the first time... But of course the practice you DO have playing those notes comes from the fact that they are part of a scale which you employ over and over and over again, so that just contributes to the repetitive, mindless nature of it all...