Two New Choral Works

Hey again.

For the sake of time and space, I am posting my two new choral works in the same thread.

The first is entitled, "The Tide Rises, The Tide Falls." It uses the poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.

The second is "Gloria." This is one movement of a potential mass I plan to do one day. (In the far off future.)

Thanks for looking. Comments are appreciated.

Price Walden

Hi, Price:

Wow. Lots of really good ideas. Where to begin?

Gloria:
One thing that I personally don't like (this could just be me), but I don't particularly like the blending of Latin text and English text. Trying to have to adapt going back and forth as a singer could really throw things off.

One thing that kind of confused me at the beginning was that you had a 2/4 bar appear a few times, but there was nothing in it: just rests. If you want a gap between vocal lines, why not use a fermatta and add a cesura? Unless there's a particular reason for it, it just looks a little baffling.

At measure 66, you have the soprano lines holding onto a D and an E-flat for six measures. I'm going to tell you right now, a professional choir attempting that a cappella is going to be messy. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but perhaps breaking up the measures into sets of two bars at a time would be a little bit easier. Other than that, you'll drive your sopranists crazy (we all want to, believe me, but it won't be pretty when they're going to be wailing out those pitches).

Those were my only major concerns with the piece. Other than that, I really like the different textures you've applied, such as the quarter-note triplet patterns, and the general sound of the piece is great.

The Tide Rises, the Tide Falls
Stunning. My only concern is right at the end where you say "Repeat and fade to end". That could be tricky to pull off, but that's more of a performance/director concern.

That's it! I really like the work you've done. Hopefully you've found this helpful.

In tide rising, (and this is a quick fix), I would try to rework it so that the accent (beat one) isn't on the word "the" in the phrase "and the tide rises." Otherwise, the way the beats worked with the words seemed pretty good.

Also, in Gloria, why did you use dotted slurs rather than ties?

Otherwise, very pleasant to listen to.

It's late, and I've only had time to listen to the Credo, but I'm very glad I did!

Congratulations on a rather unique setting of the old Gloria warhorse. The MIDI wasn't very kind to you, but following along with the score I could see and hear in my mind how it would sound in actual performance, and I enjoyed what I heard.

I appreciated and was impressed by the fact that you made a good effort to integrate both the Latin text and the English translation into your setting. Kudos that you managed to do it while keeping the piece concise. I was mildly disappointed that you left out sections of the English; in my humble opinion, if you're going to do it, you might as well have gone all the way, but I do understand why you might have felt you had to do so.

There were several things you did that I especially liked: the meditative recitative in the altos richest register at "and on earth peace..."; the random chanting of the building clusters/chords in the women at the "laudamus" is a wonderful idea, punctuated by the men in English; the alternating divisi ostinato on "gloria," first in the tenors then the altos, as a kind of accompaniment to the melody in other parts; the climactic Aflat9 chord at 61 on "have mercy on us" - what a cry that would be! All these among others.

I would have advised a less accomplished composer against the high B-flats in the soprano part, but it's fairly obvious you know how to handle your forces and what kind of ensemble this is meant for. I mention it more for the benefit of others - I would point out that you do take the sopranos quite high, but you don't leave them there long, and the overall tessitura is quite singable.

The few things I didn't agree with are really almost trivial, born mostly of my personal Roman Catholic sensiblities and my traditional bent: I thought perhaps the beginning was a bit introspective considering the text (Glory to God in the highest!), as well as the end (you alone are the most high...in the glory of God the Father). Also, the fragmented English text in the alto at the end at measure 73 I found a little distasteful (where you paraphrase "art most high" as if apropos of nothing, then immediately skip to "in the glory..."). As I say, these are highly subjective, running afoul only of my personal belief and taste.

My sincere compliments on an effective work.

Thanks everybody for such great comments!

I used the dotted slurs in the chant section because it was to be chanted and not held out. Just one of the those things to keep it distinct.

I used the 2/4 bar with rests b/c I wanted a specific time of rest not just what you feel. It can still be slightly slowed or quickened but for the most part I wanted it to move at a certain yet uncertain pace.

I'm sorry about some of the things you may have felt regarding your beliefs, but I just went where my heart and the music told me too.

This is all very encouraging since I have only been composing for about a year and I've only been composing choral works for about half of that.

Thanks so much.

More comments are welcome.

Price Walden

Nice ideas going on here:

In the Gloria, you have some nice ideas of texture, but I dont know if they were right for this piece. It sounded a little dark to be for Glory to God in the Highest. Also I agree with others about the mixing of the latin and english. As a singer looking at it, its confusing.

For the tides, I liked the main motif. Overall it was a very nice piece. Some Variation in the second stanza might be nice. It was to static for that one idea.

Keep up the work.

What a fantastic piece of music. I absolutely adore your harmonies in Gloria.
I havent listened to The tide one yet...but i will get to it.

I wrote a criticism...but changed my mind after listening to it again. It sounds fine. I love it. can't wait to hear a live performance. I dont analyse works very well...so im not helpful in that area.

Will listen to The Tide...when i put some clothes on.
*hears members gagging, and some even vomiting...*

a few notation commnets (since you've only been writing for a short time):

corect the inter-layer naturals and flats (when there's a flat in layer 1, and a flat in layer 2, you need to "hide" the layer 2 alteration, or else you get a "double alteration" which I know is not what you were asking for).

In vocal music, as you well did, all the expressions (dynamics, etc..) go above the staff.. however, so do the triplet brackets, UNLESS there is no risk what so ever of the bracket interfering with lyrics.. which unfortunately, here they do.

For heavily divided sections, such as your "gloria" in triplets section in the tenors, use two staves. Screw the "saving space" thing.

I will also have to say that to write "have mercy us" in the last phrase is clumsy. The vocal linebeing sung by everyone from soprano 2 down WILL stick out like a sore thumb. The audience will actually hear "have mercy us" and wonder what the hell that means. Looking at your score, I see no convincing musical reason for leaving out the word "on" in that final phrase.

It is excellent that there are no extraneous slurs being used as phrase markings.. HOWEVER, wherever a single syllable covers multiple notes (for example, measure 1, soprano: glo-----ri-a), you MUST slur all the notes that are sung to that single syllable.

Likewise, any shorter groups must be slurred as well (measur 6... where you have the syllable "de" cover 2 notes)

Speaking of which, again, there is no convincing musical reason to butcher the word "Deo" into a single syllable "De". This makes your text, in essence "Gloria in excelsis de-Deo".. you're making the chorus stutter. It's just silly. Get rid of that. Toss in the missing syllable. It won't alter your music for the worse. As a matter of fact, it improves it.

On the subject of those missing syllables and words: ONLY do that within carefully hidden inner lines. Which basically means, don't do it. Ever.


For your dotted tied notes with the ad lib lyrics, write in "ad libitum" after the lyrics. And there is no need to put the * at EVERY single phrase that uses this trick.

You just write the first lyric as "Laudamus Te (ad libitum)*" with your asterisk to the footnote in the score, then from that point on, for each new phrase, write "Benedicimus Te (ad libitum)" without the asterisk... by this point, they should KNOW what "ad libitum" means.

At measure 29, I would completely avoid that annoying "half a word" trick you're doing. HAVE the first altos sing "tibi"... HAVE the second altos sing "magnam" (NOTE: it's magNAM not magNUM - pronounced "ma-nyam" not "mag-nam"), HAVE the tenors sing "Gloriam".

By the way, no tie in the tenor part, from measure 29-30.. there are two syllables, no need for a tie on that G.

On text setting: measure 40 the word is "De-us"... pronounced "day-oos", not like "deuce" like when you play cards.... so you're missing a syllable there.

measure 46, I would go with a more standard Latin orthography and write Jesu rather than the Greek Iesu. The reason for this is that in Latin, it should be two syllables, pronounced Ye - zoo. The way you have it written, a chorus could be expected to do three syllables: Eee - e-zoo

measure 50, be sure to divide the syllables properly a well: Agnus divides into A-gnus, not Ag-nus.
measure 51, that is fil-li-us... not fil-ius. so you're missing a syllbale there.
measure 51-52: it's Pa-tris.

as for your english setting, measure 57, it should probably be ta-keth, rather than tak-eth. Though I won't put my hand in fire over that one.

Musically, I am not convinced measure 60, tenors, the word "World" all by its lonesome, makes any sense. It would be more convincing as simply an "ah!".

Come to think of it, "world" being such a close-mouthed word is NOT the best choice for a long held note like that section is giving us. bascially, you are asking the chorus to sing a crescendo on the sound "wur", with the terminal consonant cluster "ld". That's very weak.

I take exception to the ending as well.
The end of "ghost" cannot be sonically morphed into an "ah" sound.
I understand the effect you are going for.. but it won't work. The word is "Ghost": goe---- ST. It has a hard dental final consonant, AND a consonant cluster. It's just not good text setting.

If you want a final "ah", then write it. Never mind the gimmicky "morphing" effects.