What are we composing for?

Originally Posted by Corbin The Violist

AA,

That's a little unrealistic... unhumanistic and not gonna get you anywhere.

This is a strange statement to me. Was it unrealistic for Wagner to write exactly what he wanted to write? Are you saying he spent his time playing up to what other people want? Or how about Schoenberg? Or Philip Glass? Or even Beethoven? I've read stories that equate to him blowing off anyone who didn't see his self-proclaimed genius. You also have Debussy who had teachers that told him his music didn't make any sense. Erik Satie had the same problem. Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue was highly criticized because it didn't fit the standard german ideas of development.

I think we could go on and on naming composers who seemed to write for themselves, judging by the amount of criticism they received by the musical establishment at the time. To me, it's much more realistic and humanistic to write for yourself, expressing your own thoughts and feelings, than to try to please those around you. To me, the second option makes the composer sound like a dot writing machine instead of a human expressing themselves.

EDIT: And my statements don't exclude the idea of focusing on communicating something to your listeners. I'm just saying you should be doing it in your own way.

Originally Posted by Antiatonality

I had a professor who showed us the very last tonal piece he ever wrote back when he was a bachelors student. That's pretty sad, but it's true. There's an ideology behind the whole movement from Romanticism to Modernism and later what we see in contemporary "art music" today that ties almost directly into our shift into the modern scientific age. It's not to say I don't think of the music as "interesting," I do, but I also find it repulsive that professional instructors today are preferring to teach one over the other instead of teaching all of it. "Students will get it in Theory Class, you don't need me to teach it to you."

Wrong. So very, very wrong.

Actually, if I understood your objection correctly, you appear to have a misconception about the duties of a composition teacher.

Teaching you what can be learned in "Theory Class" is not within those duties.

I suspect that you went to a school and did not even talk to the teachers before applying? Because so far, all you've done is bad mouth the institution where you went for your grad degree.

Speaking for myself, I approached three different institutions before settling on my final choice. I had appointments with the composition teachers I would have ended up with had I chosen those institutions. I basically got to "test drive" each one, and see how I got on with them.

My suspicion is also that you would be considerably happier with a degree in another specialization than composition, if what you say about your institution is true.

Sadly, I don't know how to say it in English, however, a degree in "techniques d'écriture" (techniques of writing) was available from at least two of the institutions I visited. It's a course heavy on counterpoint, harmony, orchestration, etc... all seemingly composition-related, yet without the actual composition lessons.

I know some people who got their degrees using that specialization. These were people more interested in eventually going to L.A. to pursue film-scoring and film orchestration.

Well, this post has been FAR too positive and encouraging... it needs to end on a bitchy note , so, here goes: you appear to be the author of your compositional misfortunes. I put the blame squarely on your shoulders. You should have taken the test drive first.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

Well, this post has been FAR too positive and encouraging... it needs to end on a bitchy note , so, here goes: you appear to be the author of your compositional misfortunes. I put the blame squarely on your shoulders. You should have taken the test drive first.

Well, maybe he had no other choice? There were no other institutions nearby or he couldn't afford anything better? ? ?

It's a little harsh to say what you said there without knowing under what conditions it happened. I know personally I had no choice with whom I studied composition when I did, but for other circumstances. Though, I did meet him before hand and we talked a lot, it wasn't a total surprise when it worked out just fine but I can't help thinking I just got lucky.

But those things are better left answered by the guy in question, rather than speculating.

I am lucky, because in my school our music department is large and close knit. So basically if some one says no to performing my peice, I have an attack dog. (my theory teachoer) and since most kids are in his class *grins*

Every one has this benefit in my school. I would personally grab some of my close friends form an ensemble and write for it. Doesnt matter if its out of the ordinary. Get who you can and write for it. Then get some songs down. Now hold a concert.

AA -

Hardest thing to realize about your compositions is that they are NOT you -- possibly a shard of glass reflecting your personality, maybe a snapshot of you reaction to something --- all intermingled with what comes to you from the world and what comes out from you all imperfectly. None of it being the sum of what you are at the moment.

Therefore, if you are in doubt about yout "progress", then show your portfolio to another composition teacher (preferably at another institution) or a professional musician. Also, many composers make the most progress AFTER they finish school.

Lastly, please appreciate that you were accepted into a graduate program for composition. There are some people on this board who have taken composition seriously much later in life and find that the financial support possible when you were just out of high school or undergrad is far less. I would also not romanicize the janitors and lawyers who managed to write huge unpublished novels or symphonies -- they sacrificed (willingly, granted) much social time and some job development and finances to do their passion and, unlike the propaganda you see in the media, they had quite a few moments when they considered chucking the whole damn thing.

I always compose for others. I mean, whats good about writing music if you don't let people hear it?

I dont really excel as one, but I usually tend to write for people whom I know and will be able to perform my music.

My music was not meant to be heard on a computer only.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

Well, this post has been FAR too positive and encouraging... it needs to end on a bitchy note , so, here goes: you appear to be the author of your compositional misfortunes. I put the blame squarely on your shoulders. You should have taken the test drive first.

Actually, I speak of both institutions I've attended (and I've really only badmouthed one instructor - and to be fair, I don't even talk about the institution itself, which is actually a very reputable place). This test drive you speak of is a bit of a challenge for someone who didn't exactly grow up on a middle class income level. You may have been able to visit three, five, ten institutions or more by plane, boat, car, or whatever. The "test drive" is just as costly, and there's never a sure-fire way to know that you'll get the best for your dollar.

Truth be told, I met the one professor I wanted to study with before ever deciding on whether to continue my education. He showed me scores of his work, told me about how his style is contemporary but draws from different influences. It seemed a good bet to me that he could teach me what I was looking for. Then, when I actually enrolled in classes my first semester, he was overloaded with students so I had to take lessons from a different instructor (the one I had problems with). I finally had him as an instructor, and many of the very things YOU and FLINT seem to agree are problems with the work I posted are things I was instructed to do in his lessons.

I take full responsibility for my decision to attend at all. It seems wherever I've gone, I've been thrown in the same, tired cesspool of composers who want to make a name for themselves by creating the next original method of composition, constantly reinventing themselves along the way as they come up with new this, new that, new, new, new... and it gets so old! I took two years off from college to recollect myself and still managed to repeat my mistakes by going back to a university for the education I wanted to have.

I'm sorry, but I highly disagree with your assessment of the "role" of a composition teacher. Theory classes are for studying "the theory" behind music. Composition lessons are for putting some or all of the theory "into relevant practice". If you take four semesters of music theory and only one of those covers contemporary music of the 20th century, then why only focus on "putting into practice" music of the 20th century? Why NOT put into practice all of the theory by using the concepts to put multiple styles into practice? There's nothing stopping any competent composition professor from helping a student create quality work from any of the dozens of harmonic languages out there.

We can go around in circles all day about what the "role" of a composition instructor is, but I don't think the distinction gets any more basic than this - Theory and Practice. If I had the financial capability to travel across the country to find a reputable school teaching composition the way I would expect them to teach it, believe me, I'd have done it a LONG time ago. Maybe you don't see this as a "reasonable" expectation, but if you're spending the better part of your young life attaining a Doctorate to teach composition and are worth your salt to sit in that office and teach me something that is relevant to what excites me about music, you better earn your keep and not shrug my interests off because I want to learn something that bores you. That's exactly what happens in this region of the country at almost every school I've visited (including those where I've attended festivals, lectures, etc - there are several).

I don't buy into this "role" of the composition teacher you seem to have. I'm extending myself financially to pay his salary in exchange for information I need that he should have as a professional instructor. A composition professor should come AT LEAST the other 50% of the way. You can still teach me what interests you. You can still have me write a piece you want me to write as long as you're going to help me write the piece I've dreamed of writing. I think that's not only fair, it's responsible teaching and instruction.

Sorry if this offends those of you that teach composition for a living. Truly, I mean no offense, but I certainly hope some of my insight helps you see the other side of the coin. It's not that I have disdain or disapproval for every composition teacher out there. Hell, there's GOT to be SOMEONE out there that could actually meet these expectations and more. If not, well, then it's just sad to think how much has been lost to the Modern age if we think it's ok for a school to stand behind the idea that it's fine just not practicing the use of tonality anymore. That's exactly what I was being fed at every institution I visited. Forgive me if I don't eagerly jump on the next plane to visit ten more institutions in the hopes that I'll find what we should all expect to find at any reputable college. Forgive me if that's just too much to ask for.

AA, I think you're misunderstanding what I meant.

What I meant was that a composition teacher's role is not to TEACH theory. It is, as you said, to train the student to apply it in a practical way.

I'm sorry my "joke" was taken so seriously. That will teach me to use my real-life sassy manner on a forum.

However, still, you are responsible for the predicament in which you found yourself. It is up to you to get assurances that the teacher of your choice will be available as your instructor. If no such assurances are forthcoming, then you should delay your application to that school, or seek elsewhere.

As for the money issue, no one said it was cheap. It's a huge investment, and sacrifices need to be made. It IS after all the rest of your life you're talking about, so you need to invest in finding the right institution and the right teacher.

I waited 10 years before getting my master's degree. Simply because I would have been stuck with a bunch of avant-garde teachers.

However, that being said, you know, you can STILL learn from these people, even if what they are writing, and what they are encouraging you to write, are not quite your ideal.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

AA, I think you're misunderstanding what I meant.

No, I get it, and I appreciate where you are coming from and your advice to me. Too late, though. Mistakes have been made. I'm trying to move on and give others the flashing lights as I drive by, so to speak.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

What I meant was that a composition teacher's role is not to TEACH theory. It is, as you said, to train the student to apply it in a practical way.

Yes, well, that's what I've been saying all along. Where have I stated that a composition instructor should teach me theory? Don't think I did. We agree then on what a composition teacher's role is, then? What is it that we're in disagreement on? The expectations we should have for a composition instructor teaching at a well-established school of music?

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

However, still, you are responsible for the predicament in which you found yourself. It is up to you to get assurances that the teacher of your choice will be available as your instructor. If no such assurances are forthcoming, then you should delay your application to that school, or seek elsewhere.

We're all responsible for our actions. I never once passed the blame off to someone else. I had expectations, I didn't have the financial ability to make visits to hundreds of schools to find the ones that taught ALL music and not just avant guard, and I took a leap of faith. And I'll be paying for it whether or not it taught me anything significant about music at all.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

As for the money issue, no one said it was cheap. It's a huge investment, and sacrifices need to be made. It IS after all the rest of your life you're talking about, so you need to invest in finding the right institution and the right teacher.

Again, too late. I'm not about to go back to school and pay someone to teach me to put into practice what the first instructor should have taught. I know enough now to teach myself (hopefully) and should be able to get all the help I need from you fine people here. I fear it's too little far too late, though, as I'll have student debt piled up and another career to have to pursue until I'm out of debt. Too bad.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

I waited 10 years before getting my master's degree. Simply because I would have been stuck with a bunch of avant-garde teachers.

However, that being said, you know, you can STILL learn from these people, even if what they are writing, and what they are encouraging you to write, are not quite your ideal.

Yes, you can still learn from these people, but it's like pulling teeth at the dentist's office. You can't get to the information you need without having ten tired debates or more about whether or not tonality is a contemporary harmonic language. You end up spending three quarters of your time debating music and less than a fourth of it fumbling through harmonies while your instructor asks you, "Well, what harmony do YOU think you should use here?" Hehe... all the while, the instructor's thinking back to his beginning years of theory trying to remember what prepares the dominant...

Ok, that's a bit unfair and far-reaching now, but it may not be ten, twenty years from now. Still, it's possible considering the way the divisions continue to reproduce themselves through the generations.

Originally Posted by Antiatonality

No, I get it, and I appreciate where you are coming from and your advice to me. Too late, though. Mistakes have been made. I'm trying to move on and give others the flashing lights as I drive by, so to speak.

Well, I guess it's very personal what each person needs to move on in their creative growth as an artist and such. For me? I needed to get into the avant-garde (if we can call it that), and I didn't know I need it until I was right there living it. It doesn't mean it was the only thing that mattered, but it changed a lot of my opinions positively.

I get the feeling a lot of people get into classical music listening to the good'ol composers (Mozart, Brahms, etc etc) and not cuz they love Ligeti or Cage. So obviously, the panorama for composition today is probably a shock to them.

And I'm not sure what sort of teacher you had, but today postmodernism is all the rage (despite that nobody can agree what it means) and techniques such as collage and pluralism exist where you can mix a lot of things and techniques.

It's precisely because of this past/future/!? relationship in modern music that traditional things are even more important today than perhaps during the 60s (though even Berio and Cage took a LOT of things from tradition, and everyone who was anyone knew their stuff, history, and so on.)

So really, just bad luck. I really can't say that your experience represents the typical composition teacher standard. Or something.