Who is the Greatest (Not Favourite) Composer

Originally Posted by Voce

Beethoven and Mozart, while they where both great composers, did not write music that had the same complexity or influence as Bach's music, imo.
The decision is pretty subjective, though.

Complexity is objective

Originally Posted by gms5287

Complexity is objective

Maybe when it's a single aspect in question. But whether the whole body of work of one composer is more "complex" than that of another is hard to say, as there are so many aspects in which music can be complex. Bach wasn't as complex as many that came after him in timbre (and dynamics, articulation and other nuances), form (particularly greater form), rhythm, etc. I dare say Beethoven was quite a bit more complex in his usage of instruments and greater musical form. But of course Bach was incredibly complex in his contrapunctal connecting of melody and harmony, and in formal details.

This question is intriguing, but obviously unanswerable. I'd refute that Bach's influence has been greater than any other composer (that claim's been bandied around), since he really marked the pinnacle of a period. After his death he quickly slid into obscurity, coinciding more or less with the death of the baroque style.

I often think that one of the reasons for the sudden, sharp alteration in style between the baroque and classical period (which appears much more discernable than the classical-romantic divide) is that the ever-increasing complexity of counterpoint forced musicians to start afresh. There simply weren't enough people who could do it.

Bach's life must have been a terribly frustrating one, considering his genius. To write something as brilliant as the Brandenburg concerti as a gift, and then not even receive aknowledgement?

Originally Posted by Zetetic

This question is intriguing, but obviously unanswerable. I'd refute that Bach's influence has been greater than any other composer (that claim's been bandied around), since he really marked the pinnacle of a period. After his death he quickly slid into obscurity, coinciding more or less with the death of the baroque style.

Bach never slid into obscurity; his popularity has always been more or less the same, which is to say that those who know, know. In his life time he was mostly known as a virtuoso organist, and very few truly understood the breadth of his compositional output. After his death, he went on to greatly influence through his works: Mozart (who began to fully employ mature counterpoint in his works after encountering Bach and who, it is said, always kept a copy of DWK open at his piano), Beethoven (who earned his early reputation through the playing of Bach and, consequently, learned his preliminaries of performance and composition technique therein), Chopin (who also learned composition and performance largely through study of DWK and who, as is widely known, wrote a set of 24 preludes in tribute), as well as basically everyone on that list, and then many more.

I answered correctly.

Since you said that you answered correctly I almost don't dare adding or questioning anything. Almost. You are certainly right that Bach wasn't much more well-known while he was still alive than afterwards. But "his popularity has always been more or less the same"? I certainly don't think he was as well-known in the 18th and 19th century as today! Yes, many great composers knew about him and learned from his pieces. But they had to look for them in order to study them, it wasn't just thrown at them. Certainly Mozart learned lots from Bach, but how long did it take until he had even discovered him? Surely, today a child that is musically trained as Mozart was would know of Bach as one of the first composers! Sure, Beethoven, Schumann and Chopin knew of Bach and admired him, but the average person on the street had no clue. Today almost everyone in Europe and America has heard once or twice of Bach, or even heard a piece by him once. Him having influenced generations of composers says nothing about his "popularity".

Fine. You're right, Bach's "popularity" has spiked over the last hundred years particularly, but has been rising for a while. I guess I should have made specific that I wasn't talking about general popularity (i.e. the public) but rather his popularity among musicians of importance (i.e. the people on that list and beyond).

Basically, what I was trying to say was that Bach's popularity among studying musicians has always been the highest, not that the same amount of people have always known of him. My bad for the confusion.

So yes, how many generations of musicians and how deeply they were influenced says nothing about general popularity, but it does say a lot about his greatness (I feel).

I certainly agree there.

What exacly is a "greatest composer"? Is it like: the Michael Jackson of classical music? It depends on what one finds the most important quality of a composer, what might mean it could be a composer who's not the best in orchestration, but very creative and has a tons of great ideas put on paper. Or a composer who changed music the most might indicate the "greatestness" of a composer. But that would exclude all new composers, because nothing could be crazy enough the last century. You can't measure how much the composers of the last century might change the music of these days.

So I'll go for Tschaikovsky. My favourite composer is not on the list: Shostakovich. My favourite orchestrator is not on the list either: Ravel.

Well, it's probably a lack in my upbringing, but I'm not a great fan of most music older than, say, 200 years. Not totally true, because I started being interested in classical music because of Mozart. But after listening so much, it has been flogged to death to me, brilliant it may be.

I'll chime in with

there IS no "greatest" composer if you must leave out the "favourite" aspect.

particularly on this forum.

this is a forum of YOUNG composers, people for whom the life-long journey of exploration into "what exactly IS music" has barely begun!

to think that anyone here has anything OTHER than an opinion on greatness that isn't merely a reflection of their personal bias/preference is... well, silly.

If you know ALL music by ALL composers, then you can start to consider this question. Until you've actually heard ALL music by ALL composers, well, it's pretty pointless.

Even then, it all depends on our definition of greatness, which can be so varied that discussion on the matter is basically just that, discussion; there will never be a proclaimed greates composer. Still, it's interesting to see others' takes on it, and why.

I would probably say Beethoven, but even then I don't want because I also believe other great composers to be just as great....if that makes sense . Anyway, I do love Beethoven, though .