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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Feb 4 2008, 7:21 AM

montpellier's Avatar

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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonic_advent View Post
P.D.Q. Bach is a god among men, and my personal homeboy in every sense of the word.

However, if I had to pick a composer proper, it'd be Schoenberg. 12 tone theory is just a bad idea for one all-important reason...

While it might be true that music and math are intertwined, with 12 tone theory, you start losing the music, and getting too much math.

Also, he is trying to be delibriatly as random as possible!!! How is that supposed to be musically appealing in any way?
Schoenberg was just the start of a splurge of musical activity through serialism that did incur maths and statistics that ended up too often as undifferentiated sound across a span of time, unless very careful consideration was given to how the root material would pan out to determine the structure. Some composers achieved limited success but mostly it has fallen into disuse these days.

Some critics of the 50s/60s declared that Schoenberg "missed the trick" by only considering a pitch row, where Webern began to consider time and other parameters of "the note".
M
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Feb 4 2008, 10:53 AM

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WAGNER!!!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Feb 4 2008, 1:07 PM

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Originally Posted by demonic_advent View Post
While it might be true that music and math are intertwined, with 12 tone theory, you start losing the music, and getting too much math.
I suppose you hate fugues?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Feb 4 2008, 4:42 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by walkingwikipedia View Post
Well for me the obvious answer is John Williams (along with most other film composers - Howard Shore getting particular mention for what is almost plagiarism of Sibelius in "Lord of the Rings")

If we are going for proper composers however, I would definitely nominate Pachabel.
I am sad now. This comment makes me very sad.

John Williams is a genius! And Pachabel's Canon in D is my favorite baroque piece!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Feb 4 2008, 5:31 PM

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Originally Posted by walkingwikipedia View Post
Well for me the obvious answer is John Williams (along with most other film composers - Howard Shore getting particular mention for what is almost plagiarism of Sibelius in "Lord of the Rings")
A sad comment, as it reflects more a lack of knowledge of Williams' oeuvre than any sort of ralistic assessment of his work as a composer.

To blithely dismiss "most other film composers" in this way is... ill-advised.

BUT, to share my own opinion on this thread, I'd say either Andrew Lloyd Webber (does that count?) or Elliot Carter.
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In musical criticism, when issues of craft and technical consideration are set aside, what remains is more subjective. However, until technical issues are dealt with, the subjective portion bears considerably less weight.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Feb 4 2008, 11:06 PM

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Originally Posted by ClassicalSax View Post
While there will always be people who hate 12 tone music, how is maths random?

I'm sorry, and I have a feeling that many of you going to start throwing oversized boulders and flaming torches at me for this, but I can't stand mozart. Or glass for that matter.
Math isn't random on it's own... but the way the Schoenberg used it was to create randomness. He was purposely trying to avoid any sort of tonal structure, and avoid all conventional forms of music, essentially being "as random as possible."

Also... I hate Mozart as well. He's far to frilly for my tastes. The only work of his that I like, the Requiem Mass in D Minor, wasn't even completed by him...
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Feb 4 2008, 11:23 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
I suppose you hate fugues?
No. I do not hate fugues at all. There is sense and order in fugues. There is nothing but purposely flouting all standard senses of music in 12-tone theory.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Feb 5 2008, 5:07 AM

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Right then... I feel that certain things said here about my knowledge and views on film music require some defending, and I happily oblige...

First off, I would like to clear an apparent misconception. I have a huge amount of respect for the skill and craft film composers can demonstrate in their works. I would agree with rob1984 that they can show flexibility and versatility (though generally not originality in this). More on this later though...

To me, the genre of film music is a slightly shoddy one. I would consider around 5% of scores to be genuinely original. Film music is music made to the dictates of the mass-markets and can be said to have crowd-pleasing as a requirement. Artistic vision is limited, and the music must not be too stimulating so as to distract from the film, rather it must support it. Furthermore, as copyright for each score is owned by the production companies, a composer must produce a score for each film that sounds completely unique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob1984 View Post
Film scoring is an incredibly complex process and film composers are probably the most versatile composers in the world; a good film composer can write music in almost all styles without losing their own sound. John Williams, for example, is a master of his trade; it might not be the most original music but there are few better than him at getting the atmosphere exactly right at the right moment. And technically his music is well composed. In short he knows what he's doing and that's why he's been at the top for so long.

Film scoring isn't about revolutionary music (although it can be). By comparing film scores with concert music you're comparing apples with oranges and that's not fair. They're composed for different purposes and one is not inherently worse than the other because of this.
In order to fit with these demands, a film composer must inevitably compose in a style different from his own, borrowing from others to best fit his desires. John Williams may "get the atmosphere exactly right", but this (like other film composers) is all too often done by essentially rewriting an existing piece of music to make it sound similar, but original enough to avoid copyright (a task commercial composers are often commissioned to perform). This is completely understandable.

The fact remains that film music may be a different medium to concert music, but to me it is clearly an inferior one, and one that gives a lot less intellectual satisfaction to the listener (though it can admittedly be quite fun). Certainly, I would prefer to hear the original vision of a composer.

Despite this, it is for film music that composers choosing to write orchestral music receive the most accolades and respect from the general public. This annoys me because I feel it is being unjust to genuine concert music that is so much more so about the artistic vision and intellectual stimulation of a composer. It also annoys me because often it is giving them all the credit for music often half written by someone else, long diseased and unable to protest.

This is why, despite the respect I hold for film composers, I feel the need to nominate them here, as their music simply cannot hold up, as music, against concert music.

As a side note, I am nominating composers who write mainly film music (NOT Vaughan Williams, Prokofiev, Copland, Shostakovich, Glass, Walton, Bernstein and Arnold etc...!!! - though I've never viewed their film scores as their greatest works, far from it), because while others write film scores as necessities when they need financial support, or where they find an opportunity to genuinely follow their artistic vision, these composers actively choose to specialise in the area of film music (so I guess you can exclude Korngold from my grouping of nominees).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob1984 View Post
Furthermore, would you not regard film scores by the likes of Vaughan Williams, Prokofiev, Copland, Shostokovich, Glass, Walton, Bernstein and Arnold as geniune compositions?
- walkingwikipedia

P.S. to Qccowboy...
I question the need to reply to my opinions not with rebuttal/opposing opinions but rather with statements suggesting I don't know what I'm talking about. To me this is mildly offensive and I respectfully ask for you to offer healthy debate (even briefly)/constructive comments, or stay silent.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Feb 5 2008, 5:37 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by walkingwikipedia View Post
If we are going for proper composers however, I would definitely nominate Pachabel.
Of the posts in this thread this is perhaps the one that intrigues me the most (assuming you do mean Pachelbel). What, besides the canon, would you suggest that I listen to in order to understand your point? What, besides the canon, have you actually heard?

Although I suspect the background here is simple (you've heard that good old canon, didn't like it, and assume Pachelbel sucked), this is pretty surreal to me. Pachelbel is just one of those people who were really good at what they did, and are not controversial in any way. I could foresee Mozart, Cage, Schönberg, Wagner or John Williams cropping up in this list, but Pachelbel? What? It's just totally random.

I'll take this back if you can actually motivate your opinion in an informed manner without mentioning the canon, and in either case I apologize for me little rant here. It's just so weird.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Feb 5 2008, 6:02 AM

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ME!

Not quite reputable really, or famous, but hey can't I have a bash at infamous-y?

I even have hate mail!


subject: Your music... it's sooooo great!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes Brahms <wsmith123@hotmail.com>

subject: Your music... it's sooooo great!
Hi Nikolas,

Just kidding. I'd be mad at the world if I were you too. Why don't you do the world a favor and stop polluting it with your ugly, tired and uninspired music? Find another career. Thank you.

Have a nice day!

-Joe







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What an awfully sad thread this is...
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