And your favorite composer is...

Ok, QcC, I think I understand what you mean, and I agree that there's a great difference between disliking certain music, or calling a composer bad (or dreadful).

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

I will disagree with you that "craft" is "almost impossible to define". Craft encompasses a great number of variables, and while there is a great deal of flexibility in what constitutes "craft", we can agree that a solid mastery of harmony, counterpoint, orchestration, and other tools of musical creation, are good indicators of "craft".

One problem with this is, how can you see whether a composer has "mastered" harmony, counterpoint and orchestration? A specific kind of orchestration may sound thick, weird, or clumsy, but that may have been the intent of the composer. There aren't any universal guidelines anymore according to which you could easily classify something as "good craft" or "bad craft". (You could argue that something is bad craft if the music doesn't meet with the intention of the composer, but that's also hard to judge without being the composer yourself.)

Of course I agree that you can still very often hear and see if a composer is "fluent" in his techniques, in writing for orchestra, etc. But I think it's much easier to see craft in a composer, than to see with certainty an absence of craft. I have many times heard music, where I constantly asked myself whether it had a deliberate bluntness, or whether it was just "bad craft". Often that was amongst the music that fascinated me most, because it sounded original without giving me a clear answer about its "intentions". (That may also come from a personal liking for music that has a blunt, raw, or even clumsy aspect.)

(Also, there's the question whether it's really better to just stick to what you already know works, or take risks by writing things where you don't know beforehand how they will work out, but which might bring your music forward to something you couldn't have done otherwise. It may sometimes even be considered a virtue in a composer to go "beyond what one is certainly capable of", in order to grow and discover.)

I'm glad we understand each other.

And yes, it is always a bit difficult to distinguish craft or lack of it, if one isn't fluent oneself in that craft as well!

Which is why I always react when people say that "composer-X is a crappy composer". Before making that call, you need to demonstrate that you yourself are capable of recognizing craft.

We see this so often in posts like "I hate the Rite of Spring.. it's just noise".

Yeah.

The Rite of Spring would be noise if it were absolute music.

Originally Posted by spherenine

Yeah.

The Rite of Spring would be noise if it were absolute music.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

In what way would being "absolute music" suddenly make Sacre du Printemps noise rather than music?

At the moment it's Rachmaninoff... but his pieces are SO HARD!!!

I love Samuel Hazo, Clifton Williams, Frank Tichelli , John Williams and Hans Zimmer.

Samuel Hazo's Ride is so much fun to play. I like the way it sounds when all the instruments are put together and the parts just fall together.

Clifton Williams Symphony # 3 Fiesta I believe is the name is also another one of my favorites. It's really faced paced and sounds rough at some times but I like how it goes off into something lighter and then ends hard and powerful.

Tichelli's American Elegy was the first song that got me. It was dedicated to the students, and lossed loved ones of Columbine. It's just really inspiring to me.

John Williams-I love all his work especially the Harry Potter films and Zimmer for the Pirates of the Caribbean and Sprit Stallion of the Crimarron

Also Joe Hisaishi for his works on all of Miyazaki's movies.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

In what way would being "absolute music" suddenly make Sacre du Printemps noise rather than music?

I don't remember what the hell I meant when I made that post, but it was probably a joke that only made sense to me. Meh.

I'm just surprised that there is practically no mention of Wagner in a 24 page thread about favorite composers.

More on topic, I don't have one.

Originally Posted by QcCowboy

Honestly, you can really say that it is "dreadful" music?
How exactly do you define "dreadful"?
Is it badly constructed?
Poorly orchestrated?

I find that sort of comment... dishonest.

Given the context of the post I was responding to, it was more of a joke. Yes, a very badly made (and badly announced) one, but it was a jest indeed.

For the record, I have no real opinion of Elgar, since I've only listened to his transcription of Bach's BWV537 (both of which I adore), and I don't have one for Mahler either, since the only real thing I've heard from him is a crappy performance of a crappy arrangement of the Finale of his Third Symphony.

Originally Posted by JoshMc

I'm just surprised that there is practically no mention of Wagner in a 24 page thread about favorite composers.

More on topic, I don't have one.

Sorry if I sound rude, but you actually looked through all 24 pages? If so, I have genuine respect for your patience in all our non-Wagnerian might...

Back on topic... Debussy is now one of my favorite composers.