Soaring Against the Sky

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Good stuff peter, something I forgot to mention in my statement, and Gixander, all i was saying is that it won't kill you by listening to other composers in other websites, if anything, it would definitely open your horizons from the mostly boring stuff at barnhouse. Don't get me wrong, they have great music, but they don't accept anything too crazy musically, (atonality, polytonality, etc) i have no idea why, but that's why a lot of the stuff there sounds the same. All I'm saying. and I know that the other sites only show the first page of the score, but hey it won't kill you, but i can't force you either, that's a choice you must make on your own. Also, I like Peter's suggestion about no percussion taps, maybe that would take away the cheesiness i felt when i listened to it.

Peter_W:

1. I've had the same thought, and I was thinking of the same solution of having the snare match the clarinets by doing a roll for the same length. Problem that I'm worried about is that if I go into a day 1 rehearsal and go "okay, three of you, play this rubato..." that I may get something that sounds horrible. I'll see what happens. Then again, pitting three trumpets against one another also loses alot of intimacy from the original Taps (although IIRC the original melody that Taps was derived from was in time itself).

2. It is the balance of the recording that stinks. I can't get the Clarinets to come out like they should. Those bouncing notes would be much heavier, especially with our group playing them.

3. It is stronger than that, but our two horns are, one again, more powerful than the audio.

4. It'll sound better in real life. For some reason that last note is not wanting to render like it should. We don't have two tubas, and I've never been able to double myself at the same time, so that's unfortunately out of the question. However, our Bari Sax is indeed louder, as is our Bass Clarinet (same problem as above with the standard Bb Clarinets), so that'll at least make up for that. Our Trombones are also pretty powerful when it comes to those final pops such as this.

5. This goes back to what I've said a lot. If I were to make this ready to submit for publication, I'd be expanding the instrumentation to what it should be. There'd be timpani and alot more percussion. But we only have two consistent players, and this was written with a specific band in mind.

6. Well, my response was meant to be more of a "yes, what I wrote is possible" as opposed to "this is how it works, and I'm right". If it came off that way, woops. The years I've played brass instruments, I had maybe two or three rips to deal with, but I get a few of them playing winds. It's not simply doing a fast scale, agreed, but it's enough to at least mimic to some degree to the point that what I wrote is not impossible, and can be done. Of course, I ignore the program when those come, because they sound like crap from GPO for some reason. In response to your final statement from this number, I haven't heard a software patch that has gotten an actual gliss right to begin with!

MichaelAlex:
Oh, trust me, I listen to everything on lots of sites. I grew up studying concert band music, so the first three years out of high school I was happy to be able to see the music from Barnhouse. I tend these days to avoid Barnhouse (though from time to time I'll see what the newest stuff is). I'm starting to move to where I don't pay attention to anything, not because it's not valuable to me as a composer to see what everyone else is doing, but because I don't want to emulate them. I'm starting to get to an understanding of what I like, and what works that way; this was the kind of music our group liked to play, so I matched it. I apparently made it sound like those were all I listened to, which thankfully I don't. And, probably even more thankfully, I'm totally ignoring form and just looking for pieces that pull off something I may be trying to (such as a figure or run) and then wonder how I could match that to what I'm trying to do. Sorta to see how it worked for them and then wonder how I can get it to work for me.

I don't know if the cheesiness of the Taps section would go away if removing or altering the percussion to a roll was used. It depends on why you found it cheesy. The first reason that I'd think that you'd have to find it cheesy is that it just hits you. No warning there's going to be Taps, just "here it is". If that was the case, then nothing short of removing it all together would fix that.

Gixander-

Re Taps section: Instead of "play this rubato," try telling them "take your time." ...But really, that's the conductor's job, ain't it? Or is that you?
Re Final chord: You don't have two tubas but you do have a euphonium. He could double the octave. They are tenor tubas, after all. I'm not wanting so much volume as I want a full, richly voiced chord. You've got the mid-low area of that chord pretty sparse. Of course, that's just my taste.
Re Gliss: No sweat, just wanted to clarify. Your rips won't be quite as effective as a wider/higher rip, in case you want more bank for your buck there.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were writing this with a specific ensemble in mind. I know exactly what you're going through! The audio rendition really doesn't matter that much, then. Again, congrats! I enjoyed it.

I added this to my favorites a while ago, it's amazing! I'm only getting a chance to comment now though, sorry for the wait.

I'm not going to go into what I enjoyed about the piece, because that would take forever, and, frankly, would be unhelpful. Just let it be known that I loved the piece. Here's a list of things I would suggest changing (Numbers indicate bar numbers):

1. Even though the clarinets hold the same note from the trumpet solo to the flute solo, the trumpet solo still sounds random, because the feel is completely different in bars 1-2 then bars 3-4. I would suggest having the trumpet play two quarters in bar 2, followed by a half that ties into bar 3 and the solo flute, so that it sort of molds together more, or take the trumpet part out completely. Your call though, as with all the suggestions.

5. Really picky, but I didn't like the oboe grace notes before the whole note.

7. All the oboes should come in here, beat one, and all the first flutes, beat three. Otherwise the soloists will not be heard over the entire band. I think the tenor should have the melody, because the first alto/trumpet would not be heard over everyone, especially the second/third trumpet. Also, tenor blends better with trumpet than alto does in my opinion.

11. The sax part needs to come out more against the slurred winds. Give the trombones eighths instead of quarters, or try making it go the opposite direction of the winds (if the winds go up in pitch, have the saxes go down)

18. Would the tenor part be better on bari? Also, what is 'lighter' supposed to indicate. I don't understand.

19. Why the oboe in a trumpet solo? I wouldn't have it, even if it blends well. Also, I'd take off the mute.

40. Make it a wind melody, and have the alto and horn switch parts. Speaking of horns, they're almost always in unison, give the firsts and seconds different parts more often!

78. This is the only glissando I actually liked, the ones in the middle of melodies were unnecessary in my opinion, and mostly random. Glissandos should be used at the end of phrases and held and the only thing going on like this one.

99. The wind part at 99 and the brass before it were too contrasting, I didn't like the transition.

101. I didn't like how the flute solo stopped and started, I liked it better at bar 3 when they were both playing throughout the entire solo. Nice oboe part.

110. Very boring two bars, which I found useless as well. Was it too weird to switch to the trumpet solo without them? Otherwise take them out.

135. I didn't feel the oboe solo ended. I was expecting a different whole note but it just tied and caught me off guard.

149. Don't make this one a solo, and probably take out the mute.

Score: I think you need to number the first bar of each page, just at the top of the conductors score. Also, I think this piece could benefit from a bassoon or contrabassoon/contrabass clarinet for extra bass parts. But this was written for your band correct? So I guess you don't have any of the three?

On the swearingen note, this does sound a lot like one of his melodies, something he would come up with I should say.

Great work! I'm sure your friend would be honored if he heard this. It's an amazing piece, definitely in my top three.

First off, I have to post this in two replies, because the system won't let me quote the way I want to in order to respond effectively. Sorry.

Before I start answering each of your points, be mindful that the audio file render part of Finale ALWAYS sucks, especially for band. The Clarinets are too soft, as are the Saxes.

Since "adding" parts has come up alot, here's the rundown on what is going to end up happening. First off, the instrumentation seen on many of my scores works the best with the concert band I am a part of, and therefore, have access to. While I would love to have an expanded instrumentation, and am planning on rescoring most of my pieces to a symphonic band setting (which would be what most of you are questioning why I didn't in the first place), my first priority is to get a functional piece for what I have available.

The parts that I would add to this composition would be Eb Alto Clarinet, Bb Contrabass Clarinet, 2 Bassoons, Contrabassoon, 2 more Horns (to make 4), another Trombone (to make three), Bass Trombone, Timpani, Mallet Percussion (which would include Chimes and Bells, perhaps), and at least two distinct Auxiliary Percussion parts (I'm still debating on what percussive instruments to use). That adds a lot of weight to the lower lines, and would require me to rebalance the Horn parts and the Baritone/Euphonium part. What currently sits as the Euphonium part would probably end up as 3rd Trombone, and there'd be more countermelody in the Horns and Euphonium as a result.

Unfortunately, I have to work with what I have as a start.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

Actually, I'd love to hear what you enjoyed about the piece. I find it helpful to know as much about what people think about a piece. If there's a problem, that'll lead to discussion to either fix it or create a new solution. If there's something you like, then I'd like to figure out why it works so I can keep doing it.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

I may take that out, but it seemed very sparse every time I tried to remove it. I wanted to have the Chimes have those notes, and let them ring. That would sound ten times better, so I'm still debating on this part.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

I know this will sound better in real life. As I stated before, I rendered each part separately, so this helped because I went back and was able to hear, by itself, what the Oboe sounded like. For some reason, those grace notes jammed together right at the start of the measure and sounded like uber crap.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

For some reason when I copied over the Oboe part it didn't bring over the word "All". I might have accidentally set it to a different stave (if you aren't careful the arrow will point to the stave above or below and it won't copy right...but thanks for catching that). The tuttis: oboes start on measure 8 beat 1, Flute 2 on measure 7 beat 1, and Flute 1 on measure 9 beat 2.

Don't forget that the Horns also have the melody for measures 7-10. To help understand why I felt this would work better for us, please note that we have 1 Tenor Sax, and 2 each of both Altos. We also have two of both Horns, but in a final version, I'll keep it in mind to change it. I'll probably be coming back to let you all know how things are going as we head into the fall season's practices, and once we've had the initial performance, I'll be ready to rework it to a better scoring for a more balanced effect.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'm trying to find a better countermelody that goes the opposite direction. Granted, the Saxes already are going opposite of the winds (Winds have a general curve down, Saxes up).

As far as the Tenor part, I don't want it to have a heavier lower line until later. It's sort of a building up thing.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

I, personally, like the Oboe and muted Trumpet together. To each his own, I guess.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

There are a few sections where I do need to expand the Horn parts, but there aren't really a lot of options with what I have. I'll work on that. They aren't really "almost always" in unison, except on rhythm. It's usually that countermelody at the start of the melody in the faster sections for eight measures where they are the same. I'll fix that to spread out the harmony elements.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

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I don't like glissandos from Finale...they are horrible. Sure, they get the point across, but they sound horrible executed. I'm going to wait until the rehearsals to see what this sounds like in real life. I also don't believe Glissandos should be used at end of phrases. That's like saying having woodwinds runs should only be at the end of a phrase...it should be used when it benefits the music, which you can't tell until an actual attempt at it even with having Finale available.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

They aren't that contrasting. From a sound standpoint, the brass should fade away enough that the winds seem to come from out of the previous brass chord (I can't think of the right way to put that). Also, the chords are pretty much the same (concert Db-F-A-C for the first, then just the Db-F-Ab...so it's not some random resolution). The two flow together, but unless you meant it's sounds weird, once again I'll just leave it as "Finale sucks on output, I'll wait until I hear the live version".

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

It's actually playing against the Oboe for the first four measures of the solo. The second and fourth measures of the Oboe solo are static, so the Flute solo starts moving, and when the Oboe is moving, the Flute part stays static. This is a common tactic. Otherwise, you'll have two solos fighting each other, and from what I can tell, this seems to confuse people as to which is the actual solo. So, by having the Oboe start, and then the Flute respond in the background when the Oboe is holding out a note, listeners know which is the dominant solo, and therefore, the melody.

I didn't have to worry about this at the beginning because the real melody doesn't start until measure 7, so while the Oboe does play a countermelody to the Flute at the beginning, there's not enough time to confuse people since at the start of a piece, everything is confusing.

And now...for part 2 of the response.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

When I did it without those two measures, it did sound rushed. Perhaps I'll add some bells or something to this section in the symphonic version that will give this section more life.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

That's the point. It's meant to catch you off-guard. Plus, it's not a horrible note to hold out. It's a C, and the reason I continued the melody until that pitch was because I am switching back to F major from Ab major, and the C is a focal point for both. For Ab, it's the major third, and for F, it's the dominant. By shifting focus to the C, it allows for a much smoother transition to the upcoming key change.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

Upon review, I need to take this out so it's just the Flutes and Oboes. Don't know why I left that in. Shouldn't be there. Woops. Nice catch.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

Most scores for concert band, as far as I can tell, don't actually have measure numbers at the start of each page. And for extra parts, I mentioned that above so you should already know what I'm planning on doing.

impresario, on 06 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

It does sound like one of his pieces, but thankfully I went through to check what I could find, and I can't find it, so I'm good. I'm not certain if he was our trumpeter's favorite composer of concert band music, but Swearingen certainly knows how to work those brass parts.

So apparently quoting quotes doesn't work, so I'm going to try and make this as understandable as possible, my apologies if you get lost.

About the score problems: I figured you were writing for what you have, and that's great! Don't add bassoon then and forget what I said. As for the numbers, I just find it easier to make reviews with them on the page, I wasn't talking about the conductor, I'm just being self-centered.

About bar 7: I didn't realize the horns had the melody, and that combined with your large number of altos would let it be heard, so never mind about changing it to tenor.

About bar 19: I also think that oboe and muted trumpet sound great together, I just don't like the oboe in this particular situation, because it's supposed to be a trumpet solo, and adding the oboe ruins that. Also, since it's not tutti the oboe isn't really needed as the melody will be heard over the few winds you have playing.

About horns and glissandos: I guess I did over exaggerate a bit with the almost always in unison. Do whatever needs to be done to have them heard, which I think you've done well already. I'll have to check. As for glissandos, it's a great idea to check at the rehearsal if it works or not, then decide. And yes, they do suck in finale, I was trying to picture it in real life. Most sound qualities of finale aren't that great, as you and I have both noticed many a time!

About Swearingen: I was saying that it could've came out of his head, not that it exists and you've copied - it's quite original. And I said your friend would be honored by what YOU did for him, this piece, not about Swearingen

Anything I've left unanswered, you've agreed with me or you can assume I've agreed with you. You've obviously put lots of thought into this, great job! I'll try and post what I like about the piece when I have audio tomorrow.

Well, I do think this is the most likely piece of mine to attempt to get published, so I do want to get it nearer to that status. So, I will be enlarging the instrumentation as I laid out earlier.

The "solo" you speak of isn't really a Trumpet solo with the Oboe added over it. I wanted that specific effect of the Trumpet/Oboe together at that point. It's a quick and easy way to have an airy effect while still having a small piercing effect with the two. It should work for what I've used it for.

Finale's GPO is more geared towards Orchestra instrumentation, and thankfully I've been able to use it somewhat to create a "decent" concert band setup. The glissandos are crap, because it's a straight glissando, which is only doable by a Trombone in reality. I could go back and, for an audio only score where I'm not using it for parts or a score, just for the audio, write in notes in small durations to make it sound "better". Can't take the place of human randomness though.

The only reason I mentioned looking through what I could of Swearingen's pieces is that I had the same thought. "Dang, this sounds like something he'd write." So I went to look just to make certain I hadn't accidentally taken some melody or countermelody. Thankfully, I hadn't.

And to be honest, there wasn't really that much thought. It just came out and I wrote it and then threw it onto the computer. It took less than 48 hours from start to finish, but that's what happens when an event resonates with you.

Catchy, nice transitions

So, I've changed the title to "Soaring Against the Sky", and have made a few alterations, but nothing big for now. I got Finale to do "correct" chromatic glissandos, and redid the recording, and then layered the old version and this new one together (I was attempting to make it sound like more than one person playing so the glissandos weren't exact, and it sort of worked). Everything we've talked about is good to go or has a note to watch out for it during rehearsals, which will take place on the 24th of August.

In response to the whole glissando problem we've all had, I knew there was a setting somewhere for it. In Human Playback Preferences, if you go to the selection for glissandos, you'll see it defaults to Automatic. To get this effect, you just set it to Chromatic instead. I fudged Automatic and Chromatic together because I think that's more realistic (as no two people ever play the gliss the same exact way). Gives it a nice effect. I also tried to dumb down how loud the percussion appeared to be during the Taps, and I might have them cross it out.

Once we have performed it, I'll be going back to rework it to a more "standardized" instrumentation, so any changes between here and there will certainly show up here.