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  1. Will any of this help me get to the point of writing a symphony? I have never really had in interest in film composition, but writing a symphony has always interested me.
  2. I fixed the parallel fifths with just a small tweak, but the voice crossing happens in a suspension and in the next bar, the crossing becomes an overlap and then no voice crossing afterwards. Since the crossing resolves by itself, I don't have to do anything about it, right?
  3. I don't know of anything off the top of my head that has a brass solo other than concertos for brass instruments, but I would imagine in a brass solo that either the horns or the trumpets or both would be taking the lead most of the time and that the rest of the time, it would be trombones taking the lead, and the tuba is left to give bass line accompaniment.
  4. So, you're saying that in measure 4, that Bb bass under the virtuosic melody while it could be viewed as a non-chord tone in an F minor harmony(which is what I did in my analysis), it could also be viewed as being the point where it modulates to Eb, even though the would be chordal seventh is part of the virtuosic melody and isn't really there long enough to confirm the movement to Eb major in the next measure and thus doesn't sound strongly like a cadence to Eb? If that is the case, then the cadence to the D major chord that Beethoven does after the Bb7 chord could be viewed as another modulation, this time to D major. And the D major chord itself could be the pivot back to C minor before the Allegro starts, being the dominant of the dominant. So in other words this as far as modulations in the Grave: Measures 1-4: C minor Measures 4-6 starting at the Bb bass: Eb major Measures 6-7 starting at the evaded cadence: D major Measures 7-10: Back to C minor to start the exposition
  5. Yeah, but the instances of Eb major in the Grave just don't sound convincing enough to me to be truly a modulation to Eb major as quite a few analysts suggest it is. I mean for one thing, the very first instance of it leads right to vii°7 of C minor. If I were to analyze it as being in Eb major, I would have to analyze that diminished seventh as vii°7/vi, which as far as I know, is not all that common, especially compared to vii°7 and vii°7/V. And while yes, it would get rid of the tertiary applied chords in the Grave, analyzing it as being in Eb major rather than C minor, the cadence to Eb major that is proposed by the Bb7 in the Grave, never actually happens until the exposition. And in most cases, a cadence to the new key is required to really make it sound like a modulation has happened. Here, Beethoven evades that cadence by going first to a D major chord(and here, it actually does sound like a cadence to D major) and then from there, going to C minor via a diminished seventh chord. The fact that Beethoven is evading a cadence in Eb is why I stayed conservative as far as keys and analyzed the entire Grave introduction as being in C minor.
  6. I have fully analyzed both the form and harmony of the Pathetique Sonata(yes, all three movements of it). Even though I didn't include this in my analysis for the sake of space, here is what I feel as the sonata progresses expressed in the form of a story: As you can probably tell, it is very dramatic. Most of Beethoven's C minor pieces are very dramatic. So much so, that C minor is sometimes called Beethoven's key. Anyway, there are a few things that struck me as odd. Here they are: Tertiary Applied Chords By this, I mean something like V7/IV/IV. There were a few chords in the sonata that I just could not seem to simplify to being secondary, so I had to notate it as tertiary. Minor Dominant in a Major Key Yeah, believe it or not, there are instances in this sonata where Beethoven is in a major key and uses the minor dominant. Usually in this case, the bass line is descending, which is a common place to see the minor dominant, but only in a minor key. The minor dominant being used in a major key just struck me as odd. Ab Minor Just the appearance of this key struck me as odd. Usually such a rare key as Ab minor is associated more with Jazz than Classical. I know how Beethoven is using this key. He is using it as the parallel minor. He seems to love his parallel key relations. But even taking this into consideration, it is still a key that startled me a little when it appeared, unlike say the C major - C minor parallel that Beethoven uses so frequently. Here is my harmonic and formal analysis of the sonata. What do you think? Yes, I know, I didn't notate the inversions in the third movement, but besides that, what do you think? How accurate is it? Do I have too many modulations? Too few? Any other mistakes besides not showing the inversions for the third movement?
  7. Well, I mean, I could, but I have heard several online counterpoint resources say this: Their reasoning behind it is basically this: So, that is why I don't have any sixteenth notes in there yet is because I don't want it to sound like the subject is changing mid-fugue from the original Beethoven's fifth theme to some elaborate melody that is supposedly a countermelody to the Beethoven's fifth theme.
  8. So, I have made some major progress in writing my fugal variation for The Beethoven Variations. The countersubject that I first thought up has like no contrapuntal errors with the subject at all. Here is the subject by itself: And now marked for melodic contour: And here is my countersubject: Again marked for melodic contour with the subject in yellow: Rhythmically and melodically, the 2 melodic lines are independent(even when eighth notes occur in both lines, it isn't long), but they harmonize each other. This is like the goal of counterpoint. And to think that just a few minutes and this happens without any errors at all. But, I am running into a bit of an issue. You see, I am treating the eighth note as my unit since that is the shortest note that appears in my subject. And this worked well for my countersubject. But I am writing this fugue for string quartet, so it is a 4 voice fugue. And there are only so many things I can do in 2/4 time with the eighth note as my shortest duration. Since I have 4 voices in my fugue, I'm worried that at some point I will get homophony(same rhythm) instead of the polyphony(different rhythm) I have right now. I'm not worried about melodic independence, that will be easy. I'm only worried that at some point, previously independent rhythms will become one and the same. It is way easier for me to avoid this rhythmic homophony when the sixteenth note is my unit and I'm in 4/4. But here, the eighth note is my unit and I'm in 2/4, both making it harder to avoid rhythmic homophony. So, do you have any tips on avoiding rhythmic homophony in my fugue, given that the eighth note is my rhythmic unit and I'm writing the fugue in 2/4 time, the same time signature as the original symphony? Here are my previous threads where I mentioned this fugue: And here is what my fugue looks and sounds like right now:
  9. I do think the left hand gets a bit repetitive, yes. I mean, the exposition, development, recapitulation, and coda, all have that staccato motive in the left hand. Also, I listened through your first movement and looked especially at the fugato. And the fugato, as it stands right now, I couldn't play it if I tried. There are a lot of 10ths in there, in both hands. If a 10th is between a right hand note and a left hand note, I can play it. But if they are in the same hand, I have to adjust it, maybe if I can, change which hands play which notes, otherwise, I tend to omit the top note of the tenth, especially in a chord and shrink it down to an octave so that I can play it with 1 hand(a great example of where I do this is in the F minor chords of the Liszt transcription of Beethoven's fifth First Movement, I get F, C, Ab in the span of a tenth in the sheet music, in practice, I play F, C, F in the span of an octave so that I still get that F minor feel without straining my hands, possibly with an Ab below the C if I desire) Somebody with Liszt size hands that can easily reach 10ths or 12ths would be able to play your fugato as written. I on the other hand, can barely reach a 9th on the piano(and even when I have to, it is a bit uncomfortable), and for some notes it is worse than others(For example, Bb, I would be lucky to reach a B natural from that note, whereas C, I can reach D from relatively easily). My maximum comfortable interval and the interval that I try to stay within in a piano arrangement or composition is an octave. I can definitely hear the Mozart inspiration in your sonata, but it doesn't sound 100% Mozart. I can hear your own style in there too.
  10. You see, I'm composing this mashup of composers and I got several comments but it basically boils down to these two: I would prefer for the compatible pieces to be not only harmonically compatible but also compatible in these other ways: Tempo(obviously there will be some variability, but the closer to the established tempo for that section, the better) Dynamics(like I don't want a piano dynamic getting overwhelmed by a forte dynamic) Length(for obvious reasons) Time Signature(2/4 against 3/4 just isn't going to sound right, but I would be willing to accept 2/4 against 4/4 and 2/2 against 4/4) Here are the pieces I already have in there save the 2 ending sonatas and the bars they correspond to: Rondo a Capriccio - Bars 1-8 Symphony no. 40 First Movement, transposed to key signature - Bars 9-17 Beethoven's Fifth - Bars 18-22 Symphony no. 40 First Movement, transposed to key signature - Bars 22-33 Bach Violin Sonata in G Adagio - Bars 34-41 Beethoven's Fifth, now transposed upwards - Bars 42-45 Jupiter Symphony Finale - Bars 46-65 Pathetique Sonata Second Movement - 66-81 Symphony no. 40 Finale, not transposed - Bars 82-99 Beethoven's Fifth, now with extended motive - Bars 100-108 I am only using 3 composers for this, those being Beethoven represented by the piano, Bach represented by the violin, and Mozart being represented by the flute. So, will anybody be willing to help me find some compatible pieces? I don't know if it will be possible to find something compatible with Beethoven's fifth or if it is even worth trying.
  11. I'm not finished writing this sonata yet, but I have finished the exposition of the first movement. As you can probably tell by its nickname, the inspiration to write this sonata was Franz Joseph Haydn. This is my first sonata for a duet that actually has a finished exposition. I finished the exposition of the sonata in an hour. I know Haydn is humorous, so I tried to be humorous with my sonata. There are a quite a few surprises in the exposition that I wrote. Here they are: Bar 5: Sudden entry of the flute and absence of the piano Bar 6: Sudden reentry of the piano Bar 10: Short diminuendo, like the theme isn't quite done yet Bar 11: Short staccato variant of the theme over a syncopated bass Bar 14: Sudden forte cadence, theme is now finished Bar 15: Piano dynamic in transition material right after a cadence at forte, sudden absence of the flute Bar 21: Forte dynamic when transition material is taken up an octave, flute comes back Bar 26: Piano dynamic yet again, descending trill motive Bar 41: Very busy texture as the repeat comes closer Bar 47: Sudden change in texture, sudden dynamic change as it repeats I'm wondering, is my sonata exposition Haydnesque in its nature? I tried to get a Haydnesque feel to it by being more humorous than serious with the music. Anything impossible for the flutist? Does it feel like a Molto Allegro to you(tempo is at quarter note = 140 BPM)? Or should I just take the Molto off and just have Allegro as my tempo marking? The audio ends at about 2:51 in the MP3. I am working on the development section right now.
  12. Well, I wanted to make sure it sounded closed at the end of the A section and at the end of the piece, and I was doing 2 voice counterpoint, so I had it end in octaves for that reason(in my mind, the octave is the most closed of cadential intervals, especially when preceded by a leap in the bass). Also for that reason, I had the bass leap from F to Bb in the final cadence of both the A section and the piece. Here is the A section so you can see how I structured it: Also, I personally do this for my crescendos and diminuendos: 1 bar or less - Definitely a hairpin 2 or 3 bars - If it is a short time signature like 2/4, hairpin, if it is a long time signature like 4/4, line, 3/4, I make my decision and then stay consistent with it 4 bars or longer - Definitely a line I will fix those contrapuntal errors though, I'm not one to just leave errors behind.
  13. I composed an entire minuet in just a few minutes. It is way better than my first minuet(I never even finished that one, it was so bad), but I still might need to make some changes, particularly to the B section. I used motives to both intensify the B section as it moves to F major and to de-intensify it as it moves back to Bb major. Overall, it is in rounded binary form, which is typical for minuets. What do you think of my minuet? Does it need any changes? If so, what changes? I tried to stay in the Baroque style, thus the melody and countermelody, but should I have an ending chord to both confirm that it is the ending and make the number of bars even? That would leave me with a bit of a coda to my minuet, which isn't typical.
  14. Well, a lot of the chromaticism that I hear in Chopin is scalar, the type of chromaticism I have in my polonaise. For example here: Tons of chromatic scales used throughout the polonaise. Also, my chromaticism is based on a motive, which helps unify the B section of the A section of my polonaise. I basically have miniature chromatic scales going on over a relatively diatonic arpeggio or scale, and sometimes that scale or arpeggio has a polonaise rhythm unto itself, like in bars 15 and 17. So instead of lowering the bass by an octave and getting perhaps a muddy sounding bass, I should raise the melody up an octave. That makes sense. Better to have a wide melodic leap than a muddy bass. The inversion happens at bar 15. What was previously in the left hand is now in the right hand and vice versa.
  15. Here are the pieces that I have used and what bars correspond with each piece: Rondo a Capriccio - Bars 1-8 Symphony no. 40 First Movement - Bars 9-17 Beethoven's Fifth - Bars 18-22 Symphony no. 40 First Movement - Bars 22-33 Bach Violin Sonata in G Adagio - Bars 34-41 Beethoven's Fifth, now transposed upwards - Bars 42-45 Jupiter Symphony Finale - Bars 46-65 Pathetique Sonata Second Movement - 66-81 Symphony no. 40 Finale - Bars 82-99 Beethoven's Fifth, now extended - Bars 100-108 K 545 first movement - Bars 109-119 Beethoven Piano Sonata no. 3 in C - Bars 109-118 At the very end, the K545 sonata and Beethoven's third piano sonata are played at the same time. And I can roughly plot what each piece represents: Rondo a Capriccio - Beethoven's anger Symphony no. 40 First Movement - Mozart asking what he did wrong Symphony no. 5 - Beethoven being serious about it Symphony no. 40 First Movement - Mozart still not knowing what he did wrong Violin Sonata in G major - Bach trying to break up the situation, telling them that they are both great Symphony no. 5 transposed - Beethoven doubting Mozart Jupiter Symphony Finale - Mozart's proof Pathetique Sonata Second Movement - Beethoven apologising for the anger and telling Mozart exactly what was wrong Symphony no. 40 Finale - Mozart apologising for not admitting a mistake and telling Beethoven that his sustained diminished 7ths are a mistake Symphony no. 5, now with extended motive - Telling Mozart that it works while in a serious mood K 545 and Beethoven sonata at the same time - Resolution of the whole situation. I can imagine that some pieces are easier to find compatible pieces for. Rondo a Capriccio is basically compatible with anything else in G major. Same with the Jupiter Symphony and C major. Symphony no. 5, while having quite a few compatible pieces, is simply too short, even in the extended version to make it worthwhile. Symphony no. 40, which if you can't already tell, I transposed the first movement into the key signature would also be quite easy to find a compatible piece for(but I would also have to make sure the tempo is right and everything). The Pathetique Sonata though would be hard to find a compatible companion for.
  16. I am writing a story about a group of people lost at sea trying to find land and basing the orchestral music off of that. If I am writing the story anyway, should I turn my symphonic tone poem into a full blown opera? I have never dealt with vocals(though, if I understand correctly, I only need 1 soprano in my vocals because the soprano is so piercing, whereas I might need more altos or tenors), nor have I ever listened to a full Mozart opera(Mozart's operas are the ones I have the most exposure to). Usually, I only listen to the overture of an opera. And the only vocal piece that I have listened to the entirety of is Handel's Messiah Chorus, which isn't exactly an opera, though it isn't far off. I also am not fluent in either Italian or German, the most common languages used in operas. The only language I'm fluent in is English. Is it okay for me to use English for the vocals instead of trying to get an English to Italian or English to German translator if I do decide to turn it into an opera? Also, I'm not familiar with the opera structure, so having a structural template would work well and would shape my story into something fit for an opera, that is, if I do decide on composing an opera instead of just a symphonic tone poem. I will still use tone painting of course.
  17. Wow, this has the level of drama of an entire Beethoven symphony in just a single quintet movement. That is impressive that you could get so much emotion out of it. Let me guess, it is in the key of C# minor, right? The chromaticism is definitely at the level of Chopin and Liszt(chromatic notes don't show up that frequently relatively speaking, but a lot of them are double sharps, which as far as I know, even Beethoven never used). If we are looking at just the frequency of chromatic notes alone, then it would be more along the lines of Beethoven or Mozart. But the double sharps makes that comparison a bit unfair. It also sounds like something at Liszt level difficulty. I love how you got so much emotion into the piece. I can definitely hear a sort of sonata form in the movement. For such a long exposition, the development section is quite short. That isn't wrong, just something I noticed as I listened to the piece. And the recapitulation only really has form and key as far as resemblance, it doesn't sound almost ad verbatim like a recapitulation by Mozart or Beethoven would. But I think it makes the piece more interesting. It sounds like it has a coda in the last minute of it. Overall, I would say that it is a great piece.
  18. So here is an experimental piece of mine. I got the idea from this video: But, I figured that before I reach his level, I should first try to do it with just 3 composers. And to make it easier on myself, I have each composer corresponding to a different instrument. Mozart is represented by the flute, Beethoven by the piano, and Bach by the violin. Overall, this is about the resolution of the anger Beethoven had towards Mozart. Here are the instrument-composer correspondences: Flute - Mozart Violin - Bach Piano - Beethoven https://musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5697348 What do you think? Should I add some more Bach pieces in there? Can you recognize all the pieces I used for my trio mashup?
  19. I am currently working on arranging some more Mozart sonatas since unlike Beethoven sonatas that seem to get me overwhelmed, Mozart sonatas never do that. A few people suggested that I shrink the quartet into a trio in my K 545 arrangement to get a more full sound. I didn't though because save for the second movement, where I would have to do some harmonizations, I saw and heard 4 melodic voices, 2 per hand in the sonata. However, I did find a sonata that Mozart wrote 4 years before his K 545 sonata that I figured would be perfect for a trio arrangement, his Piano Sonata in C minor, another well known sonata of his. I noticed that the first movement tends to be where I get the most arrangement mistakes. A few of the triplet passages, I took up an octave to avoid the cellist having to do double duty. The violinist playing eighth notes over a sustained quarter note is one thing, The cellist having to do triplets while sustaining a whole note is a totally different story and is an impossible task. Thus, I took some of the triplet passages up an octave. The triplet passages that I took up an octave all involve a cascade from the violin to the viola before the cello becomes the solo instrument for a while. Except for these triplet passages that involve the instrument cascades, I kept everything in the original octave unless it got too low(which was rare) and then of course I would raise it by an octave to keep it in range. I missed a few slurs here and there, I will fix those in the second draft of the first movement arrangement. In the development section, I tended to have the staccato figure in octaves because it was in octaves everywhere else. Even the Coda still had it in octaves, just scattered a bit. Bars 1-185 are all the bars of the first movement. This is what I want feedback on. Are there any impossible double stops in there? Is there anything I can do about the dynamics to make it sound better? I would love some detailed feedback on what exactly I did wrong so that I can improve the first movement arrangement, and maybe have the entire second movement arranged at the same time(That did happen with K 545, I got feedback on the first movement, I improved the first movement and finished arranging the second movement at the same time). Here is what I have arranged so far of the sonata:
  20. I am arranging this exact sonata, but I am staying reserved with my instrumentation, only arranging it for a string trio. I reached my first conundrum at bar 49, where it looks like I will have to have the violin change the upper note while sustaining the lower note. By the way, I think your orchestration sounds good.
  21. Well, I had it an octave higher in the flutes and oboes for a reason, it isn't just that I more commonly see woodwinds such as flutes in higher octaves than string instruments like violins that can reach like piccolo pitch with techniques like octave harmonics, though that is a reason for it(Like I very commonly see flutes written in the top octave of their range. Very rarely, even in a violin concerto, do I see violins written in the top octave of their range. Usually if anything goes to the octave extremes with violins, it is the lower octaves or very quick octave leaps). It is also so that the woodwinds stand out more against the strings, since I did intend this section from bars 11-17 to be more woodwind dominant after the more string dominant beginning of the first theme. Because, I mean the first theme basically divides into a few parts of it's own, like this: As you can see, each one of the sections is orchestrated a bit differently.
  22. I have orchestrated the exposition of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and gotten several comments. Here I will concentrate on a single comment that I got, that the oboes are too high in bar 11. I got no suggestions as to how to fix the issue though, which I thought was just wrong, given that I had a detailed analysis of my orchestration mistakes. But I thought of a few solutions to the issue. Here is the edition of Mozart's score that I used for my orchestration: Mozart's Werke Edition I would use the Mozart manuscript, since it is written neatly and easily readable. But most of the Mozart manuscript isn't there, just a few pages of each movement. So the manuscript is out of the question as far as reference material goes. Thus, I went with the oldest published edition which is the Mozart's Werke edition. Unlike Beethoven's Werke by the same publisher, I have seen no measure displacement or other issues with Mozart's Werke. And here is what the woodwinds look like in bars 10-15 of my orchestration: The green note is just defaults from Musescore, I didn't make that note green, in case you were wondering. Just in case you are wondering, here is my instrumentation: 2 Flutes 2 Oboes 2 Clarinets 2 Bassoons 2 Horns(I originally thought of having a third horn but was told that it wasn't very Mozartesque to do that, so I retracted the third horn) 2 Bb Trumpets(I was told that I should change this to C trumpets, but Bb is the default for the Classical Orchestra template) Tympani 1st Violins 2nd Violins Violas Cellos Double basses Here are my proposed solutions for the woodwind issue at bar 11: Option 1: Switch oboes and clarinets Here, I would move the oboe part to the clarinets and likewise, I would move the clarinet part to the oboes. This would, if I'm correct on this, give a mellower sound than having the oboes up in that range. Just to make sure that I don't overwrite anything in the process of doing this in Musescore, I had the horns be silent here. Here is what it looks like after the switch: Option 2: Oboes double clarinets, Flutes take over oboe part Here, I would simply have the oboes doubling the clarinets. The flutes would be playing what in the previous version, I had the oboes play. Here is what it looks like after that change: Myself, I think I prefer the oboe and clarinet switch over the doubling. I already have enough doublings between the woodwinds and the strings. I don't need more between 2 different woodwind parts. Plus, I think that upper reinforcement of the flutes is necessary. Having the flutes take over the oboe part would get rid of this upper reinforcement. There is a good chance that you have already listened to my orchestration. Believe me, I am working on the issues that you and other people mentioned. I figured though that this woodwind issue was higher priority than the issues having to do with octaves or whatever. Should I go with option 1 or option 2? Or is there something else that I missed? Note: I'm not thinking of just taking the oboe out entirely. That would be, I think, the worst option.
  23. But the version that starts on C actually outlines dominant harmony. Same for the one that starts on Bb, except it outlines subdominant harmony. If I started on D, I would get this: Doesn't look or sound like the dominant, does it?
  24. I'm not sure that I would need a preparation, since my expanded subject ends on the tonic note. I tend to stick to having the answer be in the dominant, but this might be a case where the subdominant would be a better choice, so I will show both possibilities. Here is the dominant version: Well, at least that is what I would get if I stuck with natural minor. Here is the slightly altered version that is in harmonic minor: And here it is in the subdominant: Same melodic shape, but different key relation. I'm thinking of going with the dominant because it is more typical, and it won't sound like I borrowed from later on in the symphony(because I know that Beethoven goes into the subdominant in the first movement). As for what exactly I am going to do for the countersubject, I'm not sure, but I have nailed down a strategy for making a countersubject, that one being: Look at the subject and see what harmony is implied Write down all in quarter notes, notes consonant with the harmony, this will become the backbone of the countersubject Do a melodic elaboration to turn a harmony line into a melody Check for immediately noticeable dissonances. If it is a second or seventh, resolve it. If it is an augmented interval related to the leading tone, don't do anything about it if the fugue is in a minor key, otherwise resolve it. If it is the dreaded tritone, unless it resolves to a third right away, get rid of it completely and replace that tritone with a different note that still fits the harmony, that is, unless octave spacing makes the tritone not very dissonant at all. Check for parallel intervals. If they are thirds or sixths and there are more than 3 in a row, introduce contrary or oblique motion there. If they are fourths, fifths, or octaves, elaborate the melody of the countersubject further to get rid of the parallels.
  25. So I don't have to either go unorthodox with my fugue and introduce the second melodic line early or abandon those downbeats, I can just have them be eighth notes instead of the full half notes. Yeah, there isn't much variation in the subject as far as motifs, but I think I can make it work, especially if I use a contrasting phrase as my countersubject instead of trying to incorporate another part of the symphony into the fugue. Somebody else mentioned similarities between the Fate Motif in Beethoven's fifth and Bach's Fugue in D major from the Well Tempered Klavier and linked me to this video: That person suggested that since Bach goes stretto heavy with his Fugue in D major, I should do the same for my fugal variation on Beethoven's fifth.
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