Verdi vs. Wagner

Despite the fact I know this will start a flame war, it is not my intention. Totally.

Well, here are their pros and cons, in my honest opinion:

ORCHESTRATION:

Wagner - Very complex: extended the orchestra up to the point of having an instrument invented on purpose for him (the Wagner tuba.) Made opera singers and the orchestra equals, thus demanding more power and volume from singers. Hector Berlioz's influence, however, is undeniable.

Verdi - Typically simple in his first 20 or so operas, though never crude. Never more important than the singers: sometimes accused of being just a giant guitar. However, it could be extremely effective while subtle and sometimes extremely innovative, like the description of the stormy weather in Rigoletto, which predicted Debussy by 50 years. Became increasingly complex and by the time of A

I concur with everything you said, but I didn't know Wagner had formal harmony lessons with Liszt, as opposed to just generally sharing ideas? I thought he learned from a local cantor.

*quickly saves a copy of Tomas's deep analysis*

Bravo!

Verdi, influenced by Wagner?!?

Say what you want, but if you told him that he would've gotten really angry :musicwhistle:...

Otherwise, great post :D!

Maybe this could be turned into a YC Music Article?

Just a suggestion.

Why, I'm flattered by everyone's reception, particularly Wagner, who I thought would be more than hostile with my accusations against Richard :toothygrin:

And in response to him, I always read that Wagner had a few lessons with Liszt, though Liszt by no means considered himself a superior to Wagner and in a real teacher-pupil relationship. They mostly just shared ideas, like you said.

Verdi, influenced by Wagner?!?

Say what you want, but if you told him that he would've gotten really angry :musicwhistle:...

Otherwise, great post :D!

You must understand, my fellow Lusitan, that Wagner eventually influenced everyone, even those who despised him - that's how enormous he was. As time passed, the ideas he had introduced or developed became so natural that everyone used them. Verdi evolved in a completely independent way from Wagner, but eventually reached, in some areas, the same conclusions Wagner did, especially in orchestration and sometimes in harmony. It is a myth that Verdi and Wagner had no kind words for each other: Verdi said he was "positively terrified" by Tristan und Isolde, and Wagner thought Verdi's Requiem so impressive he was left speechless by it. It's a shame Richard never heard Otello. I think he would have finally been friends with Giuseppe :toothygrin:

btw, if people won't argue about the two, this could always serve as thread to comment on the two guys' works, describe them, recommend recordings, etc. I figure it might be useful.

When it comes to Verdi, there are three words I should stress: Callas, Callas and Callas. She was arguably the 20th century's greatest operatic actress, and though her voice was hardly the best, it was extremely expressive thanks to her acting skills. By chronological order, I recommend her in Macbeth, Rigoletto (with Gobbi as another treasure - he is, IMO, completely superior to any other Rigolettos), *La Traviata* (some would say her greatest role ever. It WILL make you cry if you have a heart in there somewhere. She has three Traviatas: 1953, 1955 and 1958. 1953 is a studio recording and a very fine one, but although her acting skills are already consolidated, I find that as time progresses, her voice gets worse and her dramatic skills get better. The 1958 one live at the S

As to Wagner, the word I must stress is Nillson. I've only heard parts of her Isolde, but DAMN :-P.

Nilsson. Please ;)

Nilsson's Isolde is fantastic. Some people say that she's not sensitive enough, but I think she's just the best - as Isolde, Bruennhilde, Turandot (and maybe many others, which I haven't listen). Recording with Nilsson from 1966 owns also truly wonderful Tristan - Wolfgang Wingassen (my favourite singer; he sings III. Act with such energy, sensitivity, sense of theatre and dramatic situation) and great Brangaene by Christa Ludwig (My God, I will hear her this Saturday as Narrator in Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder"!).

Very interesting topic. I've also written something about Verdi vs. Wagner, but it's in Polish and it isn't good enough to translate it ;) Verdi is great composer, sure, but I prefer Wagner: his stories are better (and with complex, symbolical characters), his life and personality are more fascinating and, well, his music is just more moving and beautiful for me; last but not least, his operas are in German (which is - besides Polish, of course - my favourite language) and he's often quoted by Thomas Mann, my favourite writer ;)

What a pity that we have very little of Wagner's music in Warsaw - I must write a petition or something like that.

Verdi and that's all there is to it

My brain hurts after reading all of that! Good job!

I've always thought that Liszt viewed Wagner as someone who had much greater potential compared to himself. I don't think Wagner received any lessons from Liszt, but he was definitly influenced by his tone poems, for example in Siegfried.

Did Wagner take lessons at all? Wasn't he self taught or something? I remember that Verdi was barely educated in music, he even called himself the least educated among composers. He must have been proud of it.

If we are talking opera Wagner and Verdi,

i prefer Puccini

I've always thought that Liszt viewed Wagner as someone who had much greater potential compared to himself. I don't think Wagner received any lessons from Liszt, but he was definitly influenced by his tone poems, for example in Siegfried.

Did Wagner take lessons at all? Wasn't he self taught or something? I remember that Verdi was barely educated in music, he even called himself the least educated among composers. He must have been proud of it.

Oh no, the complete Verdi quote is "Of all composers, past and present, I am the least learned. I mean that in all seriousness, and by learning I do not mean knowledge of music." He studied music from young and was always knew a lot about music theory. What he meant by being learned is experience with music itself and absorbing the music of others.

Very nice analysis M Is D. You've inspired me to start one of my own...then I remembered it involved me actually having to know *something* about music. :P