Originality of John Williams(?)

Incidentally, writing in reduction is I think key to Williams style.

If you download JW midis (from say, here) and open them in Finale with tracks=staves (i.e. 2-stave piano reduction)... they are playable piano pieces. You can see exactly how he wrote them - sitting at the piano, coming up with something, and then writing "flute" or "horn" next to entrances.

Very different approach from the modern composers who apparently work mostly with synth mockups like Don Davis, Klaus Badelt etc.

(disclaimer: I am a novice to film music. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong)

To me, it seems like orchestration would be more important than the actual composition for film music. I'm not just saying this to bash any composer, or to be argumentative, but I feel like the treatment of different instruments and coloristic effects have more of an impact on the audience than just a catchy hook.

(Comment withdrawn because I was dead wrong.)

Plagiarism is nothing new among composers. I think of Rachmaninoff's "Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini" where it's clearly understood by scholars that this was a way of honoring Paganini and giving him great respect using his exact theme and writing variations of it. Also, Mozart wrote several variations on a newly published song in his time

Just to clear up any misunderstandings or illusions about what exactly John Williams does when he composes:

John Williams has worked with the same orchestrator for a LONG time now. he does NOT farm out his orchestrating to legions of orchestrators.

Williams does NOT "sketch out themes", letting "editors and orchestrators" finish up the work of composing the score. That is patently untrue.

John Williams is probably the composer who has the most detailed "sketches" of any Hollywood composer. I've seen interviews with his orchestrator. He has always held that there is VERY little work that needs to be done to a Williams score in terms of orchestration, since every detail is minutely notated.

Williams does not write in piano reduction. He writes a condensed score: woodwinds on 2 staves, brass on 2 staves, strings on 2 staves. In other words, his "reduced score" is NOT playable as a "piano reduction".

I just thought I'd toss that out there to combat the obvious misinformation that is being promoted in this thread.

3. Mahler borrowed from Beethoven. Mahler based his first symphony on Beethoven's 9th.

Umm, WHAT?

4. Handel - Handel regularly lifted motives, phrases, and entire passages from other work. At the time, this was more commonplace, especially since a composer was expected to be much more prolific than today. With modern copyright laws, many of Handel's pieces would never get published.

From his OWN pieces. A vast majority of his oratorios and operas were written beforehand by his own hand. He didn't steal OTHER composers' pieces, only his own. What's wrong with that?

5. Structural Basis - Many great composers use prior compositions as models for fashioning their own work. They can focus on internal structure, orchestration, harmony, motivic development, etc, etc, but the music is essentially based on the work of another.

Just to clear up any misunderstandings or illusions about what exactly John Williams does when he composes:

John Williams has worked with the same orchestrator for a LONG time now. he does NOT farm out his orchestrating to legions of orchestrators.

Williams does NOT "sketch out themes", letting "editors and orchestrators" finish up the work of composing the score. That is patently untrue.

John Williams is probably the composer who has the most detailed "sketches" of any Hollywood composer. I've seen interviews with his orchestrator. He has always held that there is VERY little work that needs to be done to a Williams score in terms of orchestration, since every detail is minutely notated.

Williams does not write in piano reduction. He writes a condensed score: woodwinds on 2 staves, brass on 2 staves, strings on 2 staves. In other words, his "reduced score" is NOT playable as a "piano reduction".

I just thought I'd toss that out there to combat the obvious misinformation that is being promoted in this thread.

Interesting. How do you know all this Qc?

John Williams is the reason I got in to music. I was ten when I heard the Star Wars score, and decided I wanted to play the flute just like that dude in the LSO in Princess Leia's Theme. (hey, I was ten, and wasn't yet aware of the lving hell that was to rain down on me! ).

One thing I have learned in life, nobody is going to do your work, and let you get all the credit and get some tremendous pay and not go and do it themselves, fairly quickly. Williams had a first rate education, worked in the industry--largely without notice --for almost 20 years before it all came together. This was earned.

This man is tremendously talented, knowledgeable and given the world some beautiful musical gifts. Enough said.

Virtually every composer of note has borrowed from others, either intentionally or as a subconscious memory. Mozart, Schubert, Mendelssohn... Some were inspired by others work. It is part of the ropes, you could say, being so pervasive. Now, take a man who gets a commission for a film score and has 3-4 months in some cases to churn out a few hours of music for full orchestra and record it.

Please. What's the point of this argument?

Williams is the best of the best. Yet some here argue, Why pay him when you could get his orchestrator for half off??

Answer: His orchestrator isn't him!! Williams works in a for-profit industry full of huge egos. If someone else could do it, they would, and let you know about it!

Umm, WHAT?

You're kidding, right? Mahler used the idea of the pedal A to open the symphony, derived from Beethoven's 9th symphony (and he didn't hide it, either), at a means of showing continuation from old to new. In letters to friends, he admitted that he was structually basing his symphony upon Beethoven's 9th.

Think about it, Justin - start a symphony on a long pedal, slowly build to a big climax. Pull out the choir at the end of the symphony to use the choir as a regular part of the ensemble, and not just as a solo section. If you look at early revisions of the symphony (Mahler's) the similarity and influences are more apparent (with the exception of the Blumine, which was sort of an odd duck). If you do a structural analysis, the symphonies are not entirely dis-similar. You have to remember, Mahler's 1st symphony was a work in progress for an extremely long time, and while Mahler was working on this symphony, he also spent time re-orchestrating Beethoven's symphonies to be more appropriate for the modern symphony orchestra (as did Liszt). You can see a similar transformation in Mahler's music with linear counterpoint in his later work after he started spending time re-setting Bach.

So did Wagner as a conceptual basis for his operas, but Mahler took it a step further and used elements of the symphony within his own music.

From his OWN pieces. A vast majority of his oratorios and operas were written beforehand by his own hand. He didn't steal OTHER composers' pieces, only his own. What's wrong with that?

No, ROSSINI borrowed only from himself. Handel also lifted passages from other's work. It's actually a pretty big controversy. I'm not going to start quoting copyrighted material, but there's an article about it "Recontextualizing Handel's borrowing" in the Journal of Musicology from 1997. I know there are many more articles about it, but I don't have library access right now.

Incidentally, writing in reduction is I think key to Williams style.

If you download JW midis (from say, here) and open them in Finale with tracks=staves (i.e. 2-stave piano reduction)... they are playable piano pieces. You can see exactly how he wrote them - sitting at the piano, coming up with something, and then writing "flute" or "horn" next to entrances.

Very different approach from the modern composers who apparently work mostly with synth mockups like Don Davis, Klaus Badelt etc.

I am not sure I understand this point. Why would writing in a reduced style be the key to Williams's style? Stravinsky's own 2 piano arrangement of The Rite of Spring sounds just like the Right of Spring. Mahler's Symphony No. 5 arranged for piano sounds like his Symphony No. 5. In school, we often had to do reductions of big complex pieces into piano to understand what elements are essential and what elements are redundant. I guess I don't understand your point.

If you listen to this piece and this piece, you may hear similarities?

I do.

The first is from Home Alone, entitled "Holiday Flight".

The second is by Tchaikovsky, entitled "Dance of the Trepaks" and is from "The Nutcracker".

If you listen to this piece and this piece, you may hear similarities?

I do.

The first is from Home Alone, entitled "Holiday Flight".

The second is by Tchaikovsky, entitled "Dance of the Trepaks" and is from "The Nutcracker".

Already been covered. See OP.

If you listen to this piece and this piece, you may hear similarities?

I do.

The first is from Home Alone, entitled "Holiday Flight".

The second is by Tchaikovsky, entitled "Dance of the Trepaks" and is from "The Nutcracker".

I can't listen to YouTube at work, but you may be missing the point... Home Alone is a movie set during the Christmas Season, and that may have been intentional as parody or atmospheric (since The Nutcracker is a fixture at that time of year).

Possibly. I never really thought of that.

I've actually heard, from a professional composer who, incidentally, worked with him, that he used inspiration from Stravinsky.

Possibly. I never really thought of that.

I've actually heard, from a professional composer who, incidentally, worked with him, that he used inspiration from Stravinsky.

You really should at least read the OP before posting...

Apologies.

Will do so in future.

Apologies.

Will do so in future.

No problem. You just are covering a lot of things that were already mentioned in the OP and were already addressed by many posters. ;)

No problem. You just are covering a lot of things that were already mentioned in the OP and were already addressed by many posters. ;)

I suppose the positive thing is that I'm thinking along the same lines. :D

Williams does not write in piano reduction. He writes a condensed score: woodwinds on 2 staves, brass on 2 staves, strings on 2 staves.

Thanks for the correction.

In other words, his "reduced score" is NOT playable as a "piano reduction".

Whether he composes on six staves or two, his music often fits in two hands on the piano, at least in my experience from studying his scores in reduction. The exceptions are usually things like octave doublings and "decorative elements" like ww licks and harp glisses.

I am not sure I understand this point. Why would writing in a reduced style be the key to Williams's style? Stravinsky's own 2 piano arrangement of The Rite of Spring sounds just like the Right of Spring. Mahler's Symphony No. 5 arranged for piano sounds like his Symphony No. 5. In school, we often had to do reductions of big complex pieces into piano to understand what elements are essential and what elements are redundant. I guess I don't understand your point.

It influences the kinds of textures you write. If you come up with ideas at the piano and then map that onto a reduced or condensed score, that's going to have a different "feel" vs if you compose at the computer onto a full score or into a synthesizer.

It influences the kinds of textures you write. If you come up with ideas at the piano and then map that onto a reduced or condensed score, that's going to have a different "feel" vs if you compose at the computer onto a full score or into a synthesizer.

Very true! I've done both techniques and the results are very different for each way vis-

I do hear the similarites btw the two pieces. But, like what wrr stated, it was inspired from that because it was a holiday movie, and the ballet was a holiday ballet.

To take that a step further (and to clear up any confusion), I think the similarities between Williams' music in Home Alone and the Nutcracker are entirely intentional, and probably requested by the director/producer. Why else would they use the Trepak for the airport scene?

THE FORM is the most important , you cut this ,cut that and u stick into one piece , the music will not complete , believe me . i try b4 , therefore , williams didnt copy thing , he just use something to compose

dark

i have not gone through the entire thread but my overall impression of john Williams music is that he is one clever orchestrator. when i listen to it, i always have this feeling, guess the influence. I think we can all agree that many composers of the romantic period where influenced big time from previous masters. who started it all? well God of course. but the massive difference between john Williams and all the other wonderful masters that we love. is that at one point of there lives, those mastered stopped modeling after there heroes and understood and learned who they are and discovered there own sound. that lead them to there places in history, with john Williams, as brilliant as he is, he is still borrowing...

At risk of going off on a tangent...

Would someone mind explaining to me the significance of Angela Morley (Aka Wally Stott) on William's works? I have found a couple of references of her assisting william's in orchestration with star wars and superman (including her/his auto biography http://www.angelamorley.com/site/bio.htm and on wikipedia it states that any work was done through working in an 'uncredited capcity'. I am curious as to why there should be a mention of her influence on william's on sites in reference to her, but absolutely nothing i can find that is to do with john williams.

Sorry if this is convuluted.

Ferret

At risk of going off on a tangent...

Would someone mind explaining to me the significance of Angela Morley (Aka Wally Stott) on William's works? I have found a couple of references of her assisting william's in orchestration with star wars and superman (including her/his auto biography http://www.angelamorley.com/site/bio.htm and on wikipedia it states that any work was done through working in an 'uncredited capcity'. I am curious as to why there should be a mention of her influence on william's on sites in reference to her, but absolutely nothing i can find that is to do with john williams.

Sorry if this is convuluted.

Ferret

She "helped" Williams by arranging concert suites of his film scores as did many other composers/arrangers during his tenure at the Boston Pops. Note that often a team of orchestrators is required to meet the schedule demands on a major motion picture. She become one of Williams's orchestrators in the early 70's and was noted for her skills at adapting music. This is from her obituary:

"Morley assisted with orchestrations on several key John Williams scores, first in London (Star Wars, Superman, The Empire Strikes Back) and then in America (E.T., the Extra-Terrestrial, Hook, Home Alone, Schindler's List). She also arranged many orchestral numbers for Williams during his 13-year tenure as conductor of the Boston Pops, many of which have been preserved on Pops CDs. Most recently, Williams engaged Morley to pen several arrangements for his best-selling Cinema Serenade albums for Sony Classics. 'Angela Morley was a respected colleague and valued friend for over forty years,' says Williams. 'She was certainly one of the finest musicians I've ever known or worked with. As an orchestrator, her skill was unsurpassed, with a technical perfection that was drawn on and nourished by a lifelong devotion to music. She will be irreplaceable and greatly missed.' "