clarinetists, trumpeters: sung multiphonics?

I'm writing a piece for clarinet and trumpet and I'm intending to have a section where the clarinetist holds a note and sings another note through the clarinet (kind of like a drone) while the trumpeter plays around this drone in a fairly dissonant way. And then vice versa, with the trumpeter playing the multiphonic.

What do I need to know about writing this kind of thing? Is this easier to do in certain parts of the instruments range than in others? Would I be able to actually have the performer hold the one sung note, but move the played note around? Is that really difficult? Is it easier to have them hold the played note, but move the sung note around? How about flutter tongueing while doing this? Is it possible at all dynamic levels?

Thanks for your help!

Singing and playing the clarinet is difficult due to the reed. If you are intent on using it, confine it to the lowest octave of the range and use it sparingly as it is tiring and uncomfortable to try to produce. The effect is also not pretty.

As for the trumpet: I'm not experienced with the trumpet specifically, but generally it's very well possible on brass instruments (you don't have the problem of a reed there). The main difficulty here is intonation (you lose your straight tone at the moment when you start to sing), but that's a matter of training and required speed. If it's just a held drone, that's not much for an issue.

Generally, it's easier to sing the higher note and play the lower note than vice-versa, but this too depends on the training of the performer. On a trumpet and with a male voice, having the trumpet on the higher note may be more feasible in many cases - but personally I've always found the result of this less homogenous than when the sung note is the higher one. But it also depends a lot on the interval: This technique is easiest (in intonation, specifically), when you use simple harmonic ratios, such as fifths or major thirds. More complex intervals are harder to "tune", but still quite possible.

Flutter tonguing shouldn't be a problem. Personally, I find it quite a bit easier to move the sung note around and hold the played note, but both -are- possible, as long as the movement isn't too fast. Dynamic levels are possible, but you're restricted at the high end (simply because there are more elements that you must get to vibrate at the same time, and you need somewhat more air). And if you want the singing and the playing to be audible at the same time, you're of course restricted to how loud you can sing with an almost closed mouth… (In other words: You won't be able to do it louder than you can hum.)

So generally, I've found it to work best with quiet to medium levels.

In addition to Gardener's post:

Trumpet (and any higher-pitched brass) fares poorly with multiphonics. The sung note (as Gardener mentioned) pretty much has to be higher than the played note...the higher you go, the less the note speaks, the fewer overtones ring out... In my experience trumpet generally sucks A LOT with multiphonics.

Trombones on the other hand, are in the perfect register.

;)

Bass trumpet!

Cool thanks all, how does trumpet fare doing niente fade-ins and fade-outs? Obviously not as good as the clarinet, but can it in some way be done?

...how does trumpet fare doing niente fade-ins and fade-outs? ...

You mean a crescendo from nothing ? Trumpet fares poorly. Brass instruments need some sort of attack to start the note... Some players will be better at hiding this, or using very little attack. Lower notes will be easier.

Fading out is much easier.

I've heard horn and tuba players do it in person (the fade in from niente) and especially on horn it is a very silky sound with a seductive effect. On trumpet and trombone, the mouthpieces are a bit more cup-shaped, so it's harder to just let the note slide in from nothing. Definitely not an easy thing to do, but all brass players should practice it daily if for nothing else but chops conditioning.

Do NOT write niente entrances for brass instruments

That is all

On the topic of multiphonics, always write the sung note higher than the played note, and try and keep the played note relatively low. If you write the sung note on the overtone series it makes it easier and it's more vibrant.

As far as the niente ins and outs go, the clarinet is the only wind instrument with the capacity to do real fade ins and fade outs to and from nothing. It's a spectacular phenomenon when a pro does it on the clarinet.

With brass, you can pretty much guess they won't be able to do it. Brass players, as mentioned earlier, need an attack. Fade outs are much easier.

Multiphonics get easier, as far as brass instruments are concerned, as the length of tubing increases and the mouthpiece size increases. Tuba, therefore, is the easiest to sing into.

If you write the sung note on the overtone series it makes it easier and it's more vibrant.

I think what you mean there is: "if you write the sung note on an interval to the played note that appears fairly low in the overtone series" (i.e. fourths, fifths, thirds, etc.). If you would actually sing a note that is in the overtone series of the played note, that would require the interval between them to be an octave or more, and I don't think that's realistic in too many cases if you're (for instance) writing for trumpet and a male voice…

The interesting thing about those "vibrant" intervals is that they will create even -additional- third and possibly even fourth pitches at the sum and the difference of both frequencies, creating even richer harmonies.

As for dal niente: Yeah, it's rather unrealistic in most situations for most brass, but as James said, there are some situations/players/instruments where it may be possible. You generally will still use a little tongue, but it will be so subtle to be inaudible. It works very well, for instance, in the low horn register with a mute, to a lesser degree even without a mute, but for these kind of notes it becomes then very hard to control the intonation.

But intonation is often going to be a problem for -most- instruments in dal niente/al niente passages. A clarinet will tend to get lower in the crescendo and higher in a diminuendo, most other winds exactly the other way round. Which is also why it's generally quite problematical to have both a clarinet and another woodwind play a cresc. or dim. at the same time and even worse, on the same note.