Why is disonnance 'bad'? Argh

Okay, I don't obviously think dissonance is bad, but the general public seem to think that it is... and I have no idea why.

I mean, you play a cluster of notes, and it shouldn't sound "bad"... there is absolutely nothing about it to be 'bad' or 'ugly', it is just a sound...

Why does the general public seem to attach so much significance to the sound instead of actually listening to it? It is like when you offer a kid something they've never eaten before and you have one of those conversations:

You: here try this

Kid: No, I don't like it

You: Have you had it before?

Kid: No.

You: Then how do you know?

Kid: It looks funny.

(At which point you quickly remind yourself of the punishment for Child Abuse :P - just kidding)

The irony with music is that people seem adverse to it in every situation except when it accompanies a visual stimuli, and then they don't even notice it. I mean, ask a non-musician to describe the music in the new Harry Potter movie, and they would probably not have any idea what they had just heard.

There was enough dissonance in their that by 'normal' standards, people should cringe or turn their nose up at it... but they don't?! WHY!

lol

Okay, I don't obviously think dissonance is bad, but the general public seem to think that it is... and I have no idea why.

I mean, you play a cluster of notes, and it shouldn't sound "bad"... there is absolutely nothing about it to be 'bad' or 'ugly', it is just a sound...

Why does the general public seem to attach so much significance to the sound instead of actually listening to it? It is like when you offer a kid something they've never eaten before and you have one of those conversations:

You: here try this

Kid: No, I don't like it

You: Have you had it before?

Kid: No.

You: Then how do you know?

Kid: It looks funny.

(At which point you quickly remind yourself of the punishment for Child Abuse :P - just kidding)

The irony with music is that people seem adverse to it in every situation except when it accompanies a visual stimuli, and then they don't even notice it. I mean, ask a non-musician to describe the music in the new Harry Potter movie, and they would probably not have any idea what they had just heard.

There was enough dissonance in their that by 'normal' standards, people should cringe or turn their nose up at it... but they don't?! WHY!

lol

Dissonance is only bad when it doesn't resolve.

Dissonance is only bad when it doesn't resolve.

That's not true either.

Um, well, I like some dissonance, but dissonance by name just sounds "bad". It isn't a 'pretty sound' most of the time, so most people don't like it. Dissonance can be great, but I personally hate it when a piece is basically constant dissonance. In my opinion, it just sounds bad. Grating sounds with ridiculously fast contrasting oscillating waves just isn't my idea of a good piece, unless it is used to build interest to either resolve or paint a picture--and isn't used constantly.

Okay, I don't obviously think dissonance is bad, but the general public seem to think that it is... and I have no idea why.

I mean, you play a cluster of notes, and it shouldn't sound "bad"... there is absolutely nothing about it to be 'bad' or 'ugly', it is just a sound...

Why does the general public seem to attach so much significance to the sound instead of actually listening to it? It is like when you offer a kid something they've never eaten before and you have one of those conversations:

You: here try this

Kid: No, I don't like it

You: Have you had it before?

Kid: No.

You: Then how do you know?

Kid: It looks funny.

(At which point you quickly remind yourself of the punishment for Child Abuse :P - just kidding)

The irony with music is that people seem adverse to it in every situation except when it accompanies a visual stimuli, and then they don't even notice it. I mean, ask a non-musician to describe the music in the new Harry Potter movie, and they would probably not have any idea what they had just heard.

There was enough dissonance in their that by 'normal' standards, people should cringe or turn their nose up at it... but they don't?! WHY!

lol

The "general public" is a lot more open minded than the people you come across on this site. Mind you I don't mean everyone on this site, I just mean the Ancient Europhiles. Anyone that's listened to ANY music (and I mean any music: rock, pop, world, spanish (lawl), jazz, modern classical, film, metal, country, electronic, space, psychadelic....) that was made after 1890 and you hear a friggen menagerie of different sounds. Do you realize how "dissonant" a lot of pop music is? There are "conventional" sort of progressions going on, but everything going on AROUND the chord motion generally has nothing to do with the chord tones, thereby creating dissonance.

I should also mention the music of most, if not all, non-Western cultures. The music of India, Africa, Indonedia, and the Orient were assimilated into American culture a long long time ago, and what you describe as the "general public" has already added these sounds to the long list of things they consider "acceptable". Again, just because some people on this site are closed minded doesn't mean anything! There are many open minded people on this site, and *gasp* the real world :). I'm not trying to be sordid or anything, it really is true. Again I go back to film music - watch The Dark Knight, what kind of music do you hear? I recall the one scene where the guy on the boat is about to blow the switch for the other boat's bomb and there's some searing dissonance in the high register....I'm assuming cellos, it's a pretty intense sound....and it's never "resolved". It's sort of resolved visually, but the cluster continues to float off into the texture of the tutti orchestra that comes in after the guy puts down the switch. Would you imagine that? How DARE Hans Zimmer not resolve that dissonance, isn't all dissonance supposed to be resolved!??!

I think looking at all of this we come to realize that.....there are no universal laws for sound and how it should be manipulated....positing such a notion is....well....absurd.

By the way, I conduct a quasi-social experiment from time to time by sending a non-musician friend of mine a recording of Penderecki's Threnody. That piece has some of the most "vicious" sounds you'll hear in a Western work of the classical tradition. My non-musician friends must have hated it right? There's all this dissonance which doesn't resolve! (Funny enough...it does resolve, just not with a cadence or anything like that...). Anyway, they loved it...LOOOVED it. You know who else loved that extremely dissonant piece? Stanley Kubrick! The man used Ligeti, Penderecki, Wendy Carlos etc etc in his movies. Very progressive things to do.

You answered your own question:

The conversation was between you and a KID.

@Gavick: I've noticed the same thing. Some of the most interesting people who want to be composers that I know are usually musicians that come from a non-bando/ orchestra background and are open to everything. They enjoy sound and thought and conversation about anything that can actually push the limit's or even other people's buttons a little bit. Then my non-musician friends love whatever I show them... usually when they can say, "Whoa.. that is music? That's so awesome!" That's when they are the most impressed.

I wouldn't go as far as saying dissonance is bad. I think all songs need dissonance to some degree. If all songs didn't have dissonance there would be no development in music. You need the dissonance to enjoy the resolving. Also, like Gavin said, some people just like dissonance whether it resolves or not. A lot of movies use dissonance to create tension and anticipation for what is coming next; Most horror films have are filled with horrible dissonant sounds, but are necessary to create the atmosphere.

The way I see it, saying that the sounding of simultaneous pitches is "horrible" is as illogical as expressing distaste towards the color red.

There are many open minded people on this site, and *gasp* the real world . I'm not trying to be sordid or anything, it really is true.

Then why does no one come to performances of Contemporary Classical music, but millions will go and see Andre Rieu?

Or is it just that classical music is dead full stop and Rieu is only drawing crowds on showman ship?

I do agree with you though, I have some friends who are 'classical' guitarist who seem to think things should always be 'pretty' whatever that is supposed to me.

The way I see it, saying that the sounding of simultaneous pitches is "horrible" is as illogical as expressing distaste towards the color red.

EXACTLY!!! That was what I was trying to get at.

Then why does no one come to performances of Contemporary Classical music, but millions will go and see Andre Rieu?

Or is it just that classical music is dead full stop and Rieu is only drawing crowds on showman ship?

I do agree with you though, I have some friends who are 'classical' guitarist who seem to think things should always be 'pretty' whatever that is supposed to me.

EXACTLY!!! That was what I was trying to get at.

How many millions of people have seen and bought the recordings of Frank Zappa, Radiohead, Bjork etc etc. Come on man....that sort of issue is obviously deeper than "omg WEIRD SOUNDS HURR HURR"

The way I see it, saying that the sounding of simultaneous pitches is "horrible" is as illogical as expressing distaste towards the color red.

Yes, but some colors are more pleasing to people than other colors. For instance, many people would probably prefer blue over puke green. As such, many people may prefer a E major chord than Eb, E, and F being played simultaneously. Just boils down to taste, really. People like what they like, and there's nothing wrong with them not liking dissonance, just as there is not a problem with others liking it.

Yes, but some colors are more pleasing to people than other colors. For instance, many people would probably prefer blue over puke green. As such, many people may prefer a E major chord than Eb, E, and F being played simultaneously. Just boils down to taste, really. People like what they like, and there's nothing wrong with them not liking dissonance, just as there is not a problem with others liking it.

My puke is whatever I drank and ate the night before. A color is a color, learn moar about sensory perception plox.

Yes, a color is a color, and if a certain green happens to appear like someone vomited it up, I'll refer to it as "puke" green for lack of a better term. Color is a visual thing, puke can also be visual if one looks at it with their eyes, so therefore a color that looks like puke is a visual as well.

Sound is an aural perception just like color is a visual perception, and as with any perception, it is highly subjective based on who or what is listening/looking. Dissonance might be wonderful to some and horrible to others much in the same way some people may like the color red but others hate it. Big deal. We can all perceive the sounds but that doesn't mean we respond, or have to respond, to them in the same way.

You know... I never noticed people arguing about colours on art forums quite the way we argue about music here.

"Pssh, I red, I hate it."

"Why? We use red all the time. Red is in everything. You heat metal up, it turns red. Blood - is red."

"I still refuse to use it in my works."

"That's preposterous. Red is everywhere. Define your red."

See what I mean? We can't seem to get over the fact that different people enjoy different things. Chillax.

See what I mean? We can't seem to get over the fact that different people enjoy different things. Chillax.

Precisely what I'm saying :D

Puke green doesn't make you feel sick - unless you associate what you are seeing to puke. It isn't the colour, it is the association you have with it.

How many millions of people have seen and bought the recordings of Frank Zappa, Radiohead, Bjork etc etc. Come on man....that sort of issue is obviously deeper than "omg WEIRD SOUNDS HURR HURR"

haha you are totally right. Radiohead is a good example indeed.

But then, why?

I don't think it is the music, because what's being played in concert halls is often far from the most out-there music, but there is a stigma attached to it... Or at least, that is the way it seems.

Dissonance is only bad when it doesn't resolve.

No.

1. I think of the old Friday the 13th and othe classic horror movies. Most of America who's over age 20 can probably describe the movie music to you when Freddy, or Jason, or Michael Myers is prowling at night, about to stab some unsuspecting victim, and the violins start wailing in the stratosphere. People accept dissonance if in their opinion it is appropriate.

2. People don't go to new music concerts because they have no idea if it's good or if they'll like it. When the LA PHIL is doing Strauss' 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' I'm gonna get excited and pay anywhere from $10-100 to go see the concert without a second though4. When LA PHIL plays random didgeridoo concerto in H minor by Richard Johnson, I'm gonna pay the same prices, regardless of whether or not I enjoy it. When money is funny, people play it safe.

3. Puke green can also be described as Split-Pea, Green-Yellow, Old Avocado, Asparagus, or Jack in the Box taco's lettuce green...

Tone system hierarchies are tools, as are tones themselves, as is everything else. Instead of assigning "bad" and "good" to the tools themselves, how about thinking about what's being DONE with the things?

Likewise, it's a choice to regard minor 2nds or any other such intervals as belonging to any given arbitrary tone organization system. You don't HAVE to think they're "dissonances", you don't HAVE to treat them in any specific way at all. You can do whatever you want.

Like the color argument, red is nothing but a tool. What happens with music is that since music is much harder to talk about, it's always way too tempting to attack a particular term/theory/tool than to attack its USAGE. If you're talking about usage, there are millions of literature examples of things going on way beyond a simple "dissonances must resolve," and even then most of them don't fit in any particular theoretical drawer too well.

Do not forget, if you're talking about music, you ARE talking about music; meta discussions about simple tools are just pointless without there being a tangible reference to music made.

As for the OP's question, dissonance is just as "bad" or "good" as a hammer, a saw or a teacup. It's what you do with it that matters (and not even in a "good" or "bad" way since those words should be outright banned from music discourse.)

I think that dissonance is generally thought of as a 'bad' thing because music/sound triggers emotions and physical responses. If you hear a lovely C major chord, you just feel alot more relaxed than if you hear Cdim chord, or a bunch of notes hit randomly. Dissonance can make you cringe.

Compare dissonance to a horror movie; fear is a 'bad' emotion, yet people enjoy watching a horror movie, they love feeling that fear. When you hear a song with lots of dissonance, 9 times out of 10 the composer is trying to convey a message of sadness or something of the sort, so you feel sad, but you then say 'that was a really good song'.

I think everyone here knows all that already haha but whoever says dissonance is bad full stop is an idiot, or just hasn't thought about it.

But I guess you have to take into account that someone who says that might not be a musician/composer and are just generalising, probably thinking about an out of tune violin.

^^

I think that dissonance is generally thought of as a 'bad' thing because music/sound triggers emotions and physical responses. If you hear a lovely C major chord, you just feel alot more relaxed than if you hear Cdim chord, or a bunch of notes hit randomly. Dissonance can make you cringe.

Hur, if I hear a c major chord ... I hear a c major chord. Not much feeling going on. Likewise, if I hear a Cdim chord, I hear a Cdim chord. Again, not much feeling going on. Consonance can make you cringe as well and a bunch of notes hit randomly can be lovely and relaxing.

:>

I will tell you what makes me cringe... artificial harmonies on strings that are playing open 5ths...

See, it isn't just chords that make someone cringe. If you think about it, it isn't the notes either... it is the treatment of notes. If someone is writing a polychord of a C major in the treble clef and a Db Major chord in the base, if it is arpeggiated, it has almost a feel consonance (just a Major 7 chord sound). BUT, if played on top of each other, it then becomes a lot scarier... it becomes spooky. It becomes WRONG sounding.

But, also take for example that you should be able to get the same feeling from a regular diminished chord or a minor chord... at least that's what the classical people thought.We have just moved into another harmonic language of our time. Back then, most of the work we have written now would be crucified as demonic and unholy. Now... it is just shunned by the major populace.

It becomes WRONG sounding.

As opposed to right sounding?

As opposed to right sounding?

I should have made it clear... I was relating it to "spooky sounding" My vocabulary didn't adequately express the feeling I was trying to evoke. So, no not opposed to right sounding... like... that chilling feeling when someone says: "There's something WRONG here".. just like the general feeling.

My musical knowledge only goes about to when Debussy died, I have to confess, that I really do not like Dissonance or atonality, I think, it's sounds wrong. That is my opinion, some people like it but I don't. Although, I know dissonance can be taken in little doses, like in some Debussy, Satie and even some Schumann and Chopin, practicly all Romantic pieces have some dissonance, even Bach combined a C (Octave above middle C)

and a Bb (An Octave below Middle C) but it always resolves. I feel, atonality is just random clusters of notes slammed down together, someone people think it has beauty, but I don't. It's all a matter of opinion.