Why compose with clashing notes?

You should listen to eric whitacre, he makes dissonance but it's so beautiful

I've listened to some of his music, at points it was really nice to listen to but It would have been far better without discords. The music seemed to move on without having resolved the previous phrases which I found frustrating. At times the discords where resolved, these where the better parts.

I think that perhaps as I hear more discordant music I will begin to like it more. I think that discordant music is much harder to listen to and I think it's a shame that so much of modern music is (in my opinion) spoiled by discords. Prehaps modern, discordant music is one of the reasons why "classical" music is not as popular as it used to be. People must be put off the genre because when they first listen to it they can't appreciate it properly because of all the discords.

It's all opinion friend, just because you don't like dissonance doesn't mean everyone else will.

Prehaps modern, discordant music is one of the reasons why "classical" music is not as popular as it used to be. People must be put off the genre because when they first listen to it they can't appreciate it properly because of all the discords.

:laugh:

Not true at all. In fact, "modern" music attracts a large number of people.

And lets not forget all the "discordant" pop music out there.

I've listened to some of his music, at points it was really nice to listen to but It would have been far better without discords. The music seemed to move on without having resolved the previous phrases which I found frustrating. At times the discords where resolved, these where the better parts.

I think that perhaps as I hear more discordant music I will begin to like it more. I think that discordant music is much harder to listen to and I think it's a shame that so much of modern music is (in my opinion) spoiled by discords. Prehaps modern, discordant music is one of the reasons why "classical" music is not as popular as it used to be. People must be put off the genre because when they first listen to it they can't appreciate it properly because of all the discords.

I agree more composers should music like we hear in the movies!

I've listened to some of his music, at points it was really nice to listen to but It would have been far better without discords. The music seemed to move on without having resolved the previous phrases which I found frustrating. At times the discords where resolved, these where the better parts.

I think that perhaps as I hear more discordant music I will begin to like it more. I think that discordant music is much harder to listen to and I think it's a shame that so much of modern music is (in my opinion) spoiled by discords. Prehaps modern, discordant music is one of the reasons why "classical" music is not as popular as it used to be. People must be put off the genre because when they first listen to it they can't appreciate it properly because of all the discords.

With out the dissonance in his music it wouldn't be the same. That is kind of what he is known for and it is what make his music so amazing. The dissonance of his music creates new sounds that triads can not do. And it is that quest for new sounds that draws composers to use dissonance.

I think you are to focused on triadic harmonies which is clouding you judgment of any other type of music. You have associated dissonance as bad, like most very young musicians commonly do and you have locked on to mozart and other classical era composers so much it will be impossible for you to understand dissonance. That and you are still very young. With those two factors in mind of course you are not going to understand modern or even romantic era music.

I agree more composers should music like we hear in the movies!

yeah there are some crazy stuff in movies today as well. Part of the Spider Man soundtrack is atonal in a way or at least Stravinsky/Bartok

yeah there are some crazy stuff in movies today as well. Part of the Spider Man soundtrack is atonal in a way or at least Stravinsky/Bartok

Yeah and Ligeti and Penderecki are in Kubrick films.

With out the dissonance in his music it wouldn't be the same. That is kind of what he is known for and it is what make his music so amazing. The dissonance of his music creates new sounds that triads can not do. And it is that quest for new sounds that draws composers to use dissonance.

I think you are to focused on triadic harmonies which is clouding you judgment of any other type of music. You have associated dissonance as bad, like most very young musicians commonly do and you have locked on to mozart and other classical era composers so much it will be impossible for you to understand dissonance. That and you are still very young. With those two factors in mind of course you are not going to understand modern or even romantic era music.

I enjoy music from a lot of different periods including modern I can enjoy discordant music, but only when it's cleverly resolved or hidden within a cord. Overall, I think that heavily discordant music isn

Funny. I can provide a thousand justifications for why I like what I like... I'm not a huge proponent of calling dissonance 'beautiful' - I just call it what it is... tasty. For me, dissonance is more like a spice rack (salt, pepper, thyme, basil, etc... you dig?), a little goes a long way, but how much of it you like depends on your own taste. Some people prefer a sprinkle, others heap it on...

What I've never understood are the people who figuratively open up a spice jar and down the whole thing... it never made sense to me what people actually 'like' about that (as in, only using the most dissonant note combinations possible without want for 'resolving' them or otherwise 'using dissonance' for something more than a sound palette). But hey, if that's what they like, more power to them.

I prefer some kind of musical context with variety and ideas I can hold onto throughout a work... and I don't consider myself closed-minded or uneducated about this either. Babbitt, Stockhausen, Varese, Feldman, Carter (just to name a few)... they're just not my thing... I don't think 'less' of them, and maybe they do have ideas others enjoy and hold onto. I just don't find their music fulfilling to me in any way at this point, and that's cool, too.

Listen to what you like until it bores you. Then, find something else. There's plenty of music out there to go around... maybe you don't like those 'discordant' works now, Bruno, but perhaps one day you will. Who knows?

I couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:

Well, I will say little but I will give examples

let's Start with Bach St John's passion the opening

Hmm, wonder when those darn 2nds finally stop!!!!!

Solage - 14th century

Man, when will he stop with those random harmonies and odd 4ths.

Gesualdo - from Tenebrae

YouTube - Don Carlo Gesualdo - In Monte Oliveti

Man what is the tonic and where the heck is he going with this? His resolutions don't sound convincing.

hadyn - opening movement of Creation

Ok, where the heck are we again? What key? Man sounds so grey, random and tense for no reason.

Chopin prelude in A minor

YouTube - Rafal Blechacz plays Chopin Prelude Op.28 No.2 in A Minor

Ok, where is the A minor? And what the long face Freddy? George didn't wear her spats and high collar for you?

Chopin Scherzo No 1

Ah, resolution sort of ... it'd be 1000% better if he didn't have all that unnecessary vacuous bravura passages. George must have put on only her spats that day.

Scraibin Sonata 6

Egad, I have gone over the edge!!!!

Listz Piano Concerto 1 mvmt 3 and 4

YouTube - Argerich plays - Liszt Piano Concerto No. 1 in E flat mov3

Ah, a triangle solo! How daring and such HAPPY music!!!! I feel so much better!

Boy george - Miss Me Blind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48n0WZvRvzY&feature=PlayList&p=563A32B88FCA7771&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=32

Man, why can't lachenmann or Carter write songs like this in the classical world???? Well we have Bolcom at least

Why?

It's a matter of choice!

Why?

Because life is not black and white!

Why?

In all honesty because everyone is different and thus everyones' taste is different, as well as their aesthetics/

Why?

Well... Actually I can't say I mind a dischord anymore. I've used them for far too long and I can find a "reason" in them. It's more about practice than one would believe.

Why?

Life is not all beauty! Why should music be only beauty?

Why?

Oh well...

It's probably for the same reason that atonal music makes my ears bleed. I just don't get it. My brain is so anchored in traditional tonality that anything else just sounds wrong. I'm okay with quarter-tone pieces, but I don't listen to them extensively because they just sounds out of tune to me (not to mention that I cringe at the thought of trying to play them on my violin). I acknowledge the validity of those styles, but I just don't find tone rows beautiful right now. Likewise, you find dissonance to be jarring and ugly. While I may think that the 14-part chord in Whitacre's Water Night is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard, you may have long since ripped up the concert program and stuffed the pieces in your ears.

To me, dissonance is about showing feelings that you can't find in consonant chords. With new sounds come new emotions. This chord is one of my favorite examples (the top is treble clef and the bottom is bass clef):

EDIT: Nothing shows darkness and anger quite like dissonance does. In those cases, it's meant to be jarring. See Shostakovich Quartet no. 8 for a good example.

EDIT 2: If you like Whitacre but don't like dissonance, you should listen to his Seal Lullaby.

I'm okay with quarter-tone pieces, but I don't listen to them extensively because they just sounds out of tune to me (not to mention that I cringe at the thought of trying to play them on my violin).

Firstly, have you had the pleasure of hearing any works of Wyschnegradsky or Haba? I think, based on that little bit that you said, you'd really dig 'em.

Secondly, its not too difficult. Just finger a pitch and then roll your finger forward or backward a bit. Its once you get to 12th tones that it gets tricky. ;)

Perhaps people compose with "clashing notes" just because they like the sound? Is it really that hard of a concept to understand? Just because you find dissonance scary and challenging doesn't mean other people can't find it beautiful. Scriabin's 7th sonata is rather dissonant with frequent uses of minor 2nds, major 7ths, and minor 9ths and Scriabin intended it to be ecstatic and heavenly. Varese's Ameriques relies heavily upon perfect and augmented fourths and it was intended to be adventurous and full of discovery. Berg's Violin Concerto is an almost entirely twelve-tone work and has some very sweet, tender moments. What about Debussy? Debussy frequently used "clashing" notes and rarely ever bothered to resolve anything. And I don't think anyone would describe Debussy's music as "violent" or "scary". And so on and so on.

I personally find a lot of beauty in unresolved dissonance. Much more so than something that has a preoccupation with resolving to boring, plain triads. It's all about personal preference in the end.

hadyn - opening movement of Creation

Haha... I think he made it tense because God was creating a whole universe.

This thread is making me both laugh hysterically and sob pathetically. But mostly it's just killing me a little more on the inside with each post.

This is exactly what I've just been feeling as I was reading through this thread. One more stab to the heart and I don't think I'll survive.

This could potentially move on to something interesting, like how the psychological effects of dissonance has developed, or what would happen if we made Bach listen to Xenakis or Dr Dre. would he explode? Would he double in size? If we were to live on mars, with lower gravity, will our bodies adjust accordingly over generations, meaning the need for longer violins to be created for our extra lanky fingers? will this subsequently lead us to find extra, even more subtle tones between quarter tones or 12th tones? and does this mean eventually we'll live in a world(s) where a Major scale is 200 notes within an octave?

:hmmm:

Maybe this will make our ears develop into super ears, and any music from 2010 or earlier would permanently damage us in some way, and army generals will realise this and use it to their advantage, creating tanks that fire out Bach music to all who oppose whatever ideals they had in mind... Of course if this was the case then Earth would always have an advantage over Mars, meaning Hutians (martian-humans) would essentially be Earths B*tch. So if we do go to Mars, I advise you get your children to stay on earth, regardless of global warming.

:hmmm:

Maybe this will make our ears develop into super ears, and any music from 2010 or earlier would permanently damage us in some way, and army generals will realise this and use it to their advantage, creating tanks that fire out Bach music to all who oppose whatever ideals they had in mind...

This reminds me of that scene in Apocalypse Now... Robert Duvall's character is in a chopper with Martin Sheen and tells the pilot to start blasting. They're flying into a village to clear a beach (this is set in the Vietnam War) and they've got loud speakers hanging on the choppers blasting Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries. Duvall turns to Sheen and says, "We blast this every time we engage the enemy... it scares the scraggy out of them."

Funny. That's how I see that going... a completely ridiculous, but entirely hilarious moment in the film.

I am amused that after Nicola mentioned he was dying with each post, there are 2 more pages of posts. And here is my contribution.

Every single possible combination of pitches in combinations of rhythm is representative of a single emotion or expression. Now, what that single musical idea represents varies among every single person on this earth. And it even varies among the same person throughout his or her life. So right now, a discord might mean nothing to you, or mean unpleasantness. But as you are exposed to more and more music, what each musical idea means to you will change. You will find as you get older that you will hear certain things and interpret them differently than you would have earlier on in your life, like discords. You may hear them more-so as tension than unpleasantness, and hear where composers tend to lead with these tensions.

There are two things I'd like to leave you with, one is a piece of advice, and the other is my favorite quote of all time:

1. Listen to all the music you can. Doesn't matter if it is respected publicly or not, doesn't matter if your friends like it, doesn't matter if it's old or new. Just listen.

2.Don't ask yourself how you felt about a piece of usic. Ask yourself how it made you feel.

Ok, thank you

Every single possible combination of pitches in combinations of rhythm is representative of a single emotion or expression.

Oh really? I wonder then about Cage's 4'33''. (Yes, I went there.)

:thumbsup: @ SSC

Every single possible combination of pitches in combinations of rhythm is representative of a single emotion or expression.

Also, how do you account for the VAST array of interpretations of your supposed "single emotions"... How can one person find something beautiful and powerful, while another find it dark and evil?

There's no way to establish any semiotic translation in music - so, in a way, anything musical can be representative of ALL emotions or expressions.

:whistling:

There's no way to establish any semiotic translation in music - so, in a way, anything musical can be representative of ALL emotions or expressions.

Or, y'know, NO emotion or expression. :>

Every single possible combination of pitches in combinations of rhythm is representative of a single emotion or expression.