Overall thoughts of site

Hello everyone,

For the sake of this poll, a forum is defined as a category that holds a bunch of related topics.

I am interested in getting opinions about YC so far, attached is a poll that I would like everyone to answer. Please answer these follow up open ended questions:

1. Do you feel our forums have a lack of participation, and if so, why?
   
2. If you do not personally use the forum discussion boards much, can you explain why?
   
3. Are the topics on YC too old and outdated for today's generation?
   
4. Can you provide 3 or more forum ideas NOT currently utilized by YC, that you feel will engage composer interest?
   
5. Which forums on YC do you feel should be revamped, or killed?
   
6. Do you find the sibelius/finale help desk, well, helpful?
   
7. Your thoughts on the uploads portion of this site?
   

And now for the ultimate question:

***If you were the owner of YC, tell me what your strategy would be to help vitalize the forums, and site in general. I will go first:

• Do you feel our forums have a lack of participation, and if so, why?
  

Yeah. Because everything is changing all the time. Things have grown and stuff is harder to find. It was easier when the site was smaller and less complex. Even though you have created an intuitive space, I am not always aware of the possibilities I have as a user because things are not presented right in front of me all the time.

• If you do not personally use the forum discussion boards much, can you explain why?
  

I discuss stuff on the forums MORE than I look at music.

I think this may be a problem. ;)

• Are the topics on YC too old and outdated for today's generation?
  

No. The people make the forum. Therefore, there cannot be topics that are outdated.

• Can you provide 3 or more forum ideas NOT currently utilized by YC, that you feel will engage composer interest?
  

1. MAKE THE MUSIC EASIER TO FIND. All of this complex search crap, I hate! Just pick a way to find music (instrumentation/genre/whatever) then stick to it. I know I'll be voted out of this, but it's

how I feel. haha.

2. Less is more, Michael. Just saying. I mean this in ALL the ways possible.

3. Your chat feature is awesome. I just wish it was faster/better/worked.

• Which forums on YC do you feel should be revamped, or killed?
  

I hate groups. But, you like them. So, that's ok.

I think people miss the music being the focus. It was better then.

• Do you find the sibelius/finale help desk, well, helpful?
  

I've never used it. Never had to.

• Your thoughts on the uploads portion of this site?
  

I guess it works. I've uploaded a couple of things, and you've streamlined very nicely.

• Do you feel our forums have a lack of participation, and if so, why? - No, I don't think so.
  
• If you do not personally use the forum discussion boards much, can you explain why? - I use them.
  
• Are the topics on YC too old and outdated for today's generation? Some of them. - There needs to be an update.
  
• Can you provide 3 or more forum ideas NOT currently utilized by YC, that you feel will engage composer interest? I think you need the percentage bars, first of all. It made me much more aware of the fact that I was only posting in off topic, and it made me want to go into other parts more. Another would be a preview button. Like on the homepage have a little button to push that previews the latest piece. If you want to hear more, you click on it. A third would be to encourage guests to join, by maybe allowing them to post on the music, or chat with members.
  
• Which forums on YC do you feel should be revamped, or killed? I really don't think you need the masterclasses. I've been here for more than 2 years and I still don't know what it is.
  
• Do you find the sibelius/finale help desk, well, helpful? Yes
  
• Your thoughts on the uploads portion of this site? It's fine. Sometimes it can be a bit confusing to upload more movements when you already have one up, though.
  

Question 1. I feel like a lot of people are participating however after a while if they don't get reviews for their music they will not want to participate anymore. Thats part of the reason I don't like posting new stuff at the moment because I feel as if there is no point. I will but it up and a day, or less, latter no one finds it because more songs have come up.

Question 2. I use the board sometimes only if I just want to talk or share view points with people.

Question 3. I'm not sure that topics are out dated at all. However it would be cool if you could add competitions notices to the site. The topics that are created are perfect. I like it because they can be made by the members and it makes young composers kind of a Democracy. However I will say that I don't look at the topics very often. I know that I am in the forum right now but I have no idea where I am in the forum I only found this because of facebook and because you sent me the link.

Question 4.

1. It would be cool if there was a spot for job openings such as. Ensembles seeking works, or just competition notifications as well. Kind of like "The Composer's Site."

2. Give newer songs a chance to gain popularity some how. It would be cool if there was a way to make a category for new up and coming songs. As in maybe a top 10 new songs of the week. that would be cool. That would give songs more of a chance to gain critique and complements. It can be based off of amount of views in 5 or 7 days. Don't base if off of down loads because then a song can be easily rigged. A composer could keep clicking on their song until their song was the "best."

3. I think something cool would be a window that says composer of the week. It would be based off of views of all their songs, downloads, and comments received in a week.

Question 5.

I think I maybe heard something about a group that critiques? that would be cool, if there is such a thing, otherwise i'm not really sure what to do group wise.

Question 6. I have not had to use this personally because I have not had a problem however for those that are new I think it would be very helpful for them. I know that when I first got Finale it took a little while to figure out how things worked however I eventually got it.

Question 7. The upload section is fine.

Comment:

The big things I would say are to make the site easier to navigate. For example I don't know where the help desk is. if it is under the help section I would have never looked there for help on my finale program. Make things very obvious. Try not to make people look around for things. People like to skim websites so things have to be very obvious.

The second big thing is just giving newer songs and sometimes older songs a showcase. It would be nice also if you made a place for maybe just 10 random songs from the website to be for a week. 10 random songs of the week would be great for those songs that have been lost in the abyss of music submissions.

• Do you feel our forums have a lack of participation, and if so, why?
  

I do feel there is less active and frequent discussion than when I joined the forum. This may be because the most immediate topics for discussion seem to have been exhausted, so a debate would most likely not attract many participants who have said it all before in the past. As had been said, it is often hard to get good or any reviews of work, which will discourage users from participating.

• Are the topics on YC too old and outdated for today's generation?
  

I don't think this is a relevant question. For one, writing classical music is not typical of young people today anyway. What we are likely to discuss on the subject is not really confined to a certain age group or era, as our interests and concerns, excepting those to do with electronics technology, are exactly those of composers in all periods of music history.

• Can you provide 3 or more forum ideas NOT currently utilized by YC, that you feel will engage composer interest?
  

- A specific area dedicated to arrangements and orchestrations rather than original compositions.

- A showcase for the best rated works. I used to aspire to writing something that would be accepted into the 'Major Works' section. By the time I had composed it, this no longer existed.

- In general, making the site more of a community of users than just something to dip in and out of. We all have a common interest which has a lot of potential for interaction and being made to feel personal.

• Which forums on YC do you feel should be revamped, or killed?
  

Social groups. I don't like the idea of private, closed groups of users excluding others.

• Do you find the sibelius/finale help desk, well, helpful?
  

Yes; I have received answers to several problems over the years thanks to this feature.

• Your thoughts on the uploads portion of this site?
  

Better than the past. The centre column displaying reviews needs to be made wider as a proportion of the screen. At the moment it is too squashed by the sidebars.

Do you feel our forums have a lack of participation, and if so, why?

Yes, for two reasons. 1, the "old generation" (which isn't that old BTW) left because no more could be had of YC in the learning aspect, which was a gross misfortune because the site had so much more to offer. 2, the constant site changes scared people off. Any good web developer knows that consistency is the key to success. Why do you think people hate the Facebook changes all the time? But they stay there because Facebook has become a cultural icon and, in some ways, necessity for living. So they won't leave there in droves. A site that's essentially a hobby site for most people? That one they'll leave, which is exactly what happened.

If you do not personally use the forum discussion boards much, can you explain why?

I do but not as much as I used to. For one, there's fewer interesting topics than there used to be which stems from there being fewer interesting people on the site. Also, there are so many forum categories that the little bit of activity that does happen gets lost in the flood of inactivity. Paring down the forum categories would be an excellent start here.

Are the topics on YC too old and outdated for today's generation?

No, the "generations" you speak of are a mere 3-5 years' difference. That's not much. The topics, if constant posting happens, will be up to date with whoever is posting. So its not the Admin's job to fix that directly; it will correct itself.

Can you provide 3 or more forum ideas NOT currently utilized by YC, that you feel will engage composer interest?

1. Making the music uploads more visible and easy to navigate. Sure, we have "the directory", but I don't need to sort music based on whether its a Piano, Sonata, Romantic-period piece, or a Jazz - Large Ensemble, Combo Group, Mingus-style piece. We are not a database! The purpose of YC is to provide critique of music from experienced composers to less experienced composers, not to have fun sorting music and provide short pithy comments on the piece's page as if its a youtube video! Remember the old days where fervant discussions about music would happen because of a piece uploaded to YC? That is what our goal should be, not competing with something like YouTube or Soundcloud.
   
2. A hierarchy of user merit badges showing their longevity on the site and their musical experience. I speak mostly of their achievements in uploads. If they write a piece that is uniformly considered high quality, they should be rewarded for that with a gold star next to their avatar (for example). Little things like that contribute greatly to the "re-visit" value of a forum (for lack of a better term).
   
3. Major Works: This was a superb addition to old versions of YC. This can be tied into the merit system in #2 combined with nominations.
   

Which forums on YC do you feel should be revamped, or killed

Killed:

• Groups, the silliest thing ever devised.
  
• the second competitions forum. Seems like a mistake but there's two of them for the same thing.
  
• Ask YC: Are discussion threads usually not questions? That would be far more useful in Composer's HQ.
  

Revamped:

• Repertoire and Performance. Either merge them into Composers HQ or, more preferably, into one "General Music Discussion" category.
  
• Old Forums: Move em somewhere away from the top (!) of the page.
  
• All the technology forums. Merge them into one "Music Technology Discussion" category. If desired keep the Finale/Sibelius help but really until the site warrants it again, I'd just ax it.
  
• Advice and Techniques: Merge into Composer's HQ. No need for a separate category when techniques discussions are also in Comp HQ.
  

Do you find the sibelius/finale help desk, well, helpful?

It was helpful when people used it constantly. Now, its just a bunch of inactive threads. I'd keep it only if you can get people posting in there. However, the respective Sibelius and Finale help forums are much better nowadays than they where even five years ago.

Your thoughts on the uploads portion of this site?

Since it's my moderating area I naturally have a lot. Apart from what I said above, I have listed several technical and UEx changes that I believe are warranted here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tClkuvVuQiumZRy5t_Vp_2JuBfaM0RypGypb-pb3mlc/edit?hl=en_US. If anyone wants me to explain them I'll be happy to.

If you were the owner of YC, tell me what your strategy would be to help vitalize the forums, and site in general.

First off, KISS. Then make the site technologically flawless, i.e. no errors or problems with User Experience (UEx) because of sloppy code. Third, focus on UI and UEx and streamline it. Then advertise in the appropriate venues. Once the users start flowing, manage the site, but only change it when demand requires it.

Tokke, I added the second Competition forum because there is a difference between Monthly Comps/Video Game Comps/Collaboration/ and Competitions. Competitions forum will be a list of "off-site" competitions and also a place for members to hold longer-than-a-month Competitions that do not fit the (strict) guidelines of Monthly Competitions.

It just hasn't taken off yet because the changes are not set to start until January 1st.

Ok. You know what you're doing.

Making the music uploads more visible and easy to navigate. Sure, we have "the directory", but I don't need to sort music based on whether its a Piano, Sonata, Romantic-period piece, or a Jazz - Large Ensemble, Combo Group, Mingus-style piece. ***We are not a database!*** The purpose of YC is to provide critique of music from experienced composers to less experienced composers, not to have fun sorting music and provide short pithy comments on the piece's page as if its a youtube video! Remember the old days where fervant discussions about music would happen because of a piece uploaded to YC? That is what our goal should be, not competing with something like YouTube or Soundcloud.

Yes. I agree 100% (especially with the "database" criticism).

Killed:

• Groups, the silliest thing ever devised.
  

Again, agreed. What a pointless feature :lol: It's kind of like emoticons, without any of the fun.

• A hierarchy of user merit badges showing their longevity on the site and their musical experience. I speak mostly of their achievements in uploads. If they write a piece that is uniformly considered high quality, they should be rewarded for that with a gold star next to their avatar (for example). Little things like that contribute greatly to the "re-visit" value of a forum (for lack of a better term).
  
• Major Works: This was a superb addition to old versions of YC. This can be tied into the merit system in #2 combined with nominations.
  

The first is an excellent idea; hard work and talent should really be rewarded in some way. Many musicians don't get the chance to be recognized or praised, or anything like that, for their art. If they come across something worthy of recognition, that would be great.

I think it actually renders the entire idea of a "Major Works" section void and unnecessary. I always thought that the "Major Works" section was simply too demanding for practically anyone to be recognized as even a candidate for. A "medal" system would be a far more achievable and reasonable goal. It doesn't even have to stick to solely one thing, like a generally high quality piece -- you could get a merit for not just "High Quality Piece", but also "Creativity", or maybe "Practical Writer (aka, someone who clearly knows his/her instruments and writes well or idiomatically for it)". Of course, this really shouldn't turn into a "HOORAYAYAYA EVERYBUDY GETZ STICKERSZ!" type of thing, so it should strike a balance between too easy to get and too hard to get. Let the staff judge fairly and reasonably.

And please, PLEASE, let there be some consistency on this site! :headwall: That's the only way this site is going to be worth anything at all. If you don't have consistency, everything else is rendered pointless, so PLEASE let this be the main priority.

most has been said. (see my likes)

consenticy. do not build 3 ui methods for one user exp. function. this has been improved much since the last big overhaul!

an new ui takes time to get used to. feel loke home. creating a new one makes us homeless for a while.

i don't see good use for the groups sofar. i do see use for the finale/sib helpdesk.

what i really would love is if it were possible to merge the old and new forums. this merge can be optical only, it doesnt have to have all the features. maybe an xsl transformation can do the trick to make it look more uniform

a more unified forum looks less tidy.

For now it meens that the music of old members is fragmented, and I feel rather hesitant to reupload old music.

1) it is redundant

2) old comment are lost

if it cant be merged. i prefer it gets moved to the new upload section. so here's an idea. open a post and ask who want their old music moved. its an inmediate activity check;)

if it cant be merged. i prefer it gets moved to the new upload section. so here's an idea. open a post and ask who want their old music moved. its an inmediate activity check;)

Jaap brings up an excellent suggestions and I wholeheartedly agree!

1. I don't see the rationale of the name "Young Composers". Why should the site cater only to young composers? Aren't all composers interested in such a forum where they can communicate about composition and share their works? Or is there a separate site for not-so-young composers? I think the name itself may act as a deterrent for older composers to join. If the name could be changed into something like any of the following, I think it might help:

a) Developing Composers' Forum - I think this would attract composers from all age groups. And this is important because I think composers develop and mature at different ages, and they keep on developing throughout their lives; otherwise they would stop composing. I think composition itself is a developmental process or reflects a developmental process, insofar as I can judge from my experience and from the works of the great composers such as Beethoven in particular.

b) Drop the "Young" from the title - unless you really intend the forum for only young composers. If so, define somewhere what you mean by young, till what age?

2. For the uploads section, I suggest the addition of a section for "Solo non-keyboard pieces", because you only have one for keyboard solos.

3. For the forums, I suggest the addition of:

a) A forum called "Composer - Performer Interaction" or a similar name where we offer scores of our pieces and performers would be able to turn to to select some of our pieces for performance. And when they indeed perform, they can provide us with feedback and maybe even post an MP3 of their performance. After all, all of us composers want our works to get performed. I think this is very important and would enable you to "market" the forum also to performers.

b) A forum called "Practical Aspects of Being a Composer" - Composers' Headquarters is too broad a forum and so we should make separate forum for more focused topics, one of which could be this one. I think there are many practical aspects to life as a composer and such a forum would help focus threads regarding them.

4. Your periodic e-mail "Don't Forget About Us" sent to inactive members to encourage them to visit the forum and be active once again, as well as reminding them of the benefits they would get, is great. I hadn't been active on the site for more than three years, and when I got one of those e-mails, I got back into it, for I had lately been active in composing.

To answer the Young Composer rationale, we assume that Young refers to composers that are just getting started and need a place to express themselves.

This site is not intended for experienced composers such as Eric Whitacre, Tarik O'Regan, Don Freund, John Corigliano, Mason Bates, Jennifer Hidgeon. (I could go on for days).

Young implies "young in talent/experience" in the composing field. It's something we have been debating for years now, but we have found no reason to change it. Also, Young Composers is THE largest educationally focused composition website in the world. There are professional composer forums such as ACF and Garritan Forums or whatever that CATER to people with degrees in the field.

But, Young Composers is a way of harnessing the "new" part of the field for some people. When I was 13 or 14, I found YC (that was like 6-7 years ago)! I would have never joined a forum that was intended for adults because I knew I wouldn't fit in. We have many members who have now "grown" up in the community. I am 20, getting my composition degree, and am working hard at becoming a professional. If I were to join a forum now, I wouldn't join YC probably. I understand the idea that it's not meant for my demographic. The people that ARE experienced here are people that joined anyway, have just started composing but they are extremely talented, young 10 and 11 year olds who think they're prodigies (lolz), and just people who are hobbyests.

It's not really meant to be more than that. I think this site is a very focus-driven website, as opposed to a site that is "all-encompassing". There ARE forums that try to be all-encompassing, but they inevitably take on more than they can chew and fail.

IF YoungComposers was to expand and grow, then this would be the website to change because we have so many active people now.

This was not the case when the website first opened. I am not sure if it is the time for anymore change, though. YC has undergone extreme plastic surgery and therapy to get where it is right now, moderately successful in a newer technological milieu. I'm afraid of pushing the envelope, myself.