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luderart

Question About Modern Choir Piece

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The tenor is very low, but it doesn't seem that hard compared to a lot of modern choir music, perhaps you're just writing to an amateur choir and need to re-arrange some of the voices because of that.

Yeah, you guessed that right. It's not a professional choir that I am writing for.

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You'll never get better if all the feedback you get is people trying not to hurt your feelings.

You should be gracious that anyone took the time to look at it, let alone give you any kind of feedback. We could just as well not say anything and let you keep sucking.

There's something called constructive criticism. Apparently you've never heard of it.

There's little point to sticking your head in the door and saying "I looked at your piece, it sucks" and then running away.

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There's something called constructive criticism. Apparently you've never heard of it.

There's little point to sticking your head in the door and saying "I looked at your piece, it sucks" and then running away.

Too bad that's not how the real world works.

Let me thank Rosenskjold for his kind helping hand in giving me constructive criticism and respecting all my "choices" in composing the piece the way I did, and yet giving me the necessary explanations of voice leading and even going so far as to rewrite part of it himself to show me how to apply them. Apparently there are some rare gems of people who do not "work like the real world". It remains for us to appreciate them and we do so all the more because they stand in stark contrast to the rest of the world. If all of us were like him, the world would not work the way it unfortunately does; and it would be a far better place!

And let me here just add that, knowing "the way the world really works", I don't even expect it to let this humble gesture of gratitude or its object go unattacked! Perhaps this cautionary note can serve as a deterrent to such probable attacks even now!

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Uh, kay.

Its more about just not being a wuss and standing up for your music. People will attack your music, regardless of quality. Get used to it. I could have easily offered constructive criticism, but seeing the abysmal quality of the start and you calling it "good", I knew it would be a waste of my time. Usually I'm the one to promote good-hearted discussion, but there's a line, and you crossed it.

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Yup. My (weirder) music is attacked all the time. If you back down every time that happens, you will have zero respect instead of just a little respect. *cue song*

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Uh, kay.

Its more about just not being a wuss and standing up for your music. People will attack your music, regardless of quality. Get used to it. I could have easily offered constructive criticism, but seeing the abysmal quality of the start and you calling it "good", I knew it would be a waste of my time. Usually I'm the one to promote good-hearted discussion, but there's a line, and you crossed it.

Do you realize the abysmal contradiction in what you are saying here? On the one hand you are highlighting the need to stand up for one's music. On the other hand you are still condemning my piece as well as me for standing up for it and calling it "good". Make up your mind.

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Luderart, 'standing up' for your own music works for you so long as your music has no basic theoretical mistakes such as those in voice-leading and harmony, etc. Do you know that you were really bold to call your piece a 'great' song? :o Despite the obvious mistakes? Well it may be fine since you were ignorant about it, but after advices given from the previous posts, shouldn't you thank each of them since they helped you to spot your errors? As a composer, we must learn humility.

Some people may give harsh criticisms, that's okay, because they are constructive and will give you a mini wake-up call. You should be appreciative of them and learn how to make use of these feedback to the benefit of your development as a composer. I understand that you will naturally take pride in whatever music you create (I do, too! :P Who doesn't?), but not all of the things we do are perfect and there is always room for improvements. This has already turned into an argumentative combat, and you need to be more receptive. =]

:) All the best! With more practices and theoretical understanding, I believe you'll compose even better music in the future!

By the way, I've found a nice Ute prayer to summarise things up.

Earth, Teach Me

"Earth teach me quiet ~ as the grasses are still with new light.

Earth teach me suffering ~ as old stones suffer with memory.

Earth teach me humility ~ as blossoms are humble with beginning.

Earth teach me caring ~ as mothers nurture their young.

Earth teach me courage ~ as the tree that stands alone.

Earth teach me limitation ~ as the ant that crawls on the ground.

Earth teach me freedom ~ as the eagle that soars in the sky.

Earth teach me acceptance ~ as the leaves that die each fall.

Earth teach me renewal ~ as the seed that rises in the spring.

Earth teach me to forget myself ~ as melted snow forgets its life.

Earth teach me to remember kindness ~ as dry fields weep with rain."

Key words: "quiet", "suffering", "humility", "caring", "limitation", "acceptance", "renewal", "forget myself" and "remember kindness".

Remember all these and you'll be an awesome composer ^.^

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People usually reap what they sow. Go on bragging about our own works, and some people will happily riddle them on bulletholes, regardless of its quality or lack of (but if it's indeed lacking, even worse). But also, go on pulling a Wagner-on-Brahms, Hanslick-on-Tchaikovsky, Cui-on-Rachmaninov or everyone-on-Schoenberg kind of verbal abuse, and no one will take our advice seriously anymore. It's not like the world should kneel and thank us for even bothering to share our unsurpassable wisdom :P. Honesty doesn't equal rudeness.

Lacking humility will block our chances of learning anything. Lacking courtesy doesn't make us look any better. Both behaviors show exactly the same character flaw - the oversensitive, whale-sized egos so common among us musicians ;)...

The bottom line: listen and take note of what can be corrected - and let our music do the talking.

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All that has transpired goes to show how much we identify ourselves with our music. I know I do. So my music being attacked felt like I myself was being attacked. That's all. And like some people pointed out, there's a big difference between constructive criticism and attacking something for pleasure, for the sadistic pleasure of condemning it. I think such people are at some level seeking to obtain the self-assurance they lack from putting other people and their work down.

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Just keep in mind that we're all composers from around the world: not your mom. We're going to be extremely direct in our criticisms if you put something up. Part of being a composer (or a creative mind, in general) is the necessity of being able to defend and explain your work for others to understand. This isn't done by saying "you're mean" a bunch of times, but providing a real explanation. Continuing to opt for the "well everyone else is mean and dumb" will get you nowhere. A lot of battles aren't worth it and that is where one must learn to put aside their ego and take the criticism in stride. How hard is it to say "heh, whatever you say!".

Think about this for a second: my private instructor gives me criticism like this all the time, and it's not even him being a jerk, but being dead honest. I benefit from this in that I get to learn exactly what is wrong with my music without having it sugar coated.

If composition is about self-expression as I believe it is, then I don't think anyone should have to "defend" their piece. As far as "explaining a work for others to understand", I think music is self-explanatory and therefore speaks for itself.

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I think such people are at some level seeking to obtain the self-assurance they lack from putting other people and their work down.

Yeah, "the internet"

Honestly, in real life, people act with a little more tact. I think being tough (still with much more tact than was shown in this thread) on an experienced composer is good, but trying to lower the ego of someone who is starting out is fairly pointless

The better you think you are at something, the more likely you are to do it. And the more you do it, the more you realize you know little about it. The appropriate action of this forum would have been to briefly address the main point (why the conductor considered it unsingable) and left the thread alone.

People just can't resist being the internet tough guy though and putting people in their place though. And then they think quietly in their subconscious, "man I'm cool"

This happens all the time everywhere though.

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People are generally more rude online because they can hide behind their computer and, like I said, be that "internet tough-guy"

In the real world you'd look like a jackass and a tool.

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That's not what "internet tough guy" means though. Why don't you go outside or hang out with your friends, you internet-hater.

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