Modal Harmony

Just wanted to start a topic about modes, since I really do love the effect they create.I find it can be a useful way to add freshness to otherwise tired and true Major and Minor.  Mainly I'm interested in what I call "Cadence Function", where a chord of the mode is used as a "dominant". Most of the modes I've found work well when using a superstrong progression at the cadence points. I've found that the progression, II7 - I is very indicative of the Lydian Mode, and bVII7 - I is an excellent cadence in pure Aeolian, mostly stemming from that fact that it is the same as V7 - VI deceptive cadence in Ionian. In fact it seems that the "Cadence Function" for many of the modes seems to be the bVII7 - I progression, it works well in Mixolydian, Dorian, and Aeolian modes, and the use of a bVII9 - I in Dorian is especially beautiful where the 9th resolves obliquely. II7 - I is also good in Phrygian, though it feels a little "off". Locrian is obviously very difficult to write in period, but using a drone on the first degree is particularly effective, it really doesn't have a good "dominant". Finally in Ionian we have the classic V7 - I that everyone knows and loves. I've also found that instead of using of superstrong progressions where the first chord is major, mimicking the tendency for the dominant to be a major chord in classical writing,  and the second chord is the I chord, using a superstrong or strong "Chord of Tension" that is not major can also be just as effective. For example the cadence vii7 - I in Lydian works very well, but likewise using v7 - I in Dorian works like it would in Minor but without the raised third. Parallelism is also very good at creating that archaic modal feel. Overall each mode seems to have its own melodic and harmonic tendencies that differ, but are not completely removed from, the traditional Major and Minor. What are your thoughts on Modal Harmony? Have you ever used it extensively? What techniques have you discovered for creating good modal progressions without being ambiguous, etc.? Please share, I'd love to know your thoughts on this subject! :)

 

Love using modal stuff in my pieces. I'm particularly fond of the Dorian and Lydian sound. I used a lot of modal ideas in my piano duet. The difficulty is keeping that modal sound and not allowing the piece to stray into the usual major/minor realm. This is why I love Ravel's music so much, he can keep the integrity of the mode so seamlessly   

Lydian is my favorite by far, it's got the same happy sound of major, but much softer. I haven't spent a lot of time with Ravel's music, perhaps I will now! :)

This topic is very very interesting, but this theme is for me too much important, that is absolutely impossible to say all that is important in one topic, this theme deserves a book. But I will be synthetic, but certainly Iwill omit many important things.

Modalism is a path that is still not so much covered as it could be, it may be see as a great opportunity to future, once tonalism has been along history explored and explored!

My favourite mode is Dorian.

Now getting into theory:

It is quite dangerous look to modality in the same way that we look to tonality, the concept of dominant is not quite clear. 

For example, in Phrygian it is hard to look as the 5th diminished as a dominant, and you must also understand that our ear is clearly tonal, then sometimes the best thing to do is mixing tonalism with modalism, in this case transform the dominant to B major.
The Lydian is quite difficult to use with this mixing, but easily for example if you are using it in F, the II will inevitably sounds like the dominant of C, and the I as the IV, and also the IV of Lydian gives the idea of C, then it is very hard to give affirmation to it, then with Lydian you must avoid fourths and fifths jumps, giving prevalence to thirds! 

With Dorian and Eolian, you may use the VII as dominant, and it works quite well if you use a retardo on the third! Other thing that works very well is apply picards to these modes. And mix these two ideas is also very very powerful!

Another thing that is very important to have in mind, particularly in Lydian, but also in Mixolidian and Dorian, you must be very careful with tritones, which may put your melodies quite weird.

And please dont forget the Hipo-modes. I give a particular attention to Hipo mixolydian, where is like you have two tonics, or two dominants D minor and G major, and it is easy to play with this ambiguity.
 

I have one million more things to say! But I tried to condensate some relevant information here. Most of these possibilities are precisely hidden in this important concept of "ambiguity", you must never forget that you have a tonal ear, but you can mix some ambiguities from modal and tonal (picardas, majoring dominants, avoid tritones, etc) and getting incredible effects.

Sincerely I recommend you Gregorian melodies (Te Joseph celebrens, Ave Maris Stella, Preconio, Iesus Dulcis Memoria, Ave verum)! And Machaut!

 

Also recommend you http://www.youngcomposers.com/music/3923/lyrical-piece-op72-n%C2%BA4/

where you can find some of the tricks I said.

All the help and more techniques you want, just ask it.

Perhaps I will post all these here onthe future.

Most classical music which is analyzed in academic textbooks as "tonal" ( an ambiguous and subjective word)

can be analyzed more simply as modal. In other words, a piece or section of music does not have to be

stuck in one mode in order to be thought of as modal. Music can be looked at as being modal, as it

shifts from one mode to another. A mode is a group of notes, traditionally seven. In a major key there are

seven traditional modes which use the same group of notes: ionian, dorian etc.

 

The traditional harmonic minor scale or mode uses the major (ionian) key #5 from it's sixth degree

(aeolian with a natural 7th degree). The traditional melodic minor ascending scale or mode uses the

major (ionian) key #1 from it's second degree (dorian with a natural 7). This comes out to a total of 21

different modes which are connected together in a traditional major key, by only altering two degrees of

the key (ionian= seven modes, ionian #1 = seven modes, ionian #5 = seven modes, a total of 21

different modes).

 

Departing somewhat from traditional harmony, are the symetrlcal modes of limited transposition.

 

The most atonal sounding music which still uses the same tuning system can also be thought of as

modal, with the mode consisting of all twelve tones.

 

Whether or not a piece of music is modal depends on how it is looked at.

The most atonal sounding music which still uses the same tuning system can also be thought of as

modal, with the mode consisting of all twelve tones.

Wrong; atonal music means that there is no hierarchy among the pitches, which do not need to be twelve, by the way. Modal music, on the contrary, relies on hierarchical relationships around a key center.

Whether or not a piece of music is modal depends on how it is looked at.

Wrong again, but nevermind.

"Modalism is a path that is still not so much covered as it could be, it may be see as a great opportunity to future, once tonalism has been along history explored and explored!...  It is quite dangerous look to modality in the same way that we look to tonality...  you must also understand that our ear is clearly tonal, then sometimes the best thing to do is mixing tonalism with modalism..." -Capela

 

I don't know if I agree with you there, Capela.  I think it probably depends on the musical culture you're raised in.  Having a great fondness for old Appalachian music and old choral music, modal just sounds normal to me.  It's the strict adherence to major and minor that sounds off to my ear.  Like a soda that's lost all its fizz...  There are plenty of musical cultures that don't live by the rules of the western common practice period.  And without any fuss, or extensive musical training, what do their kids whistle when they walk to school?  Whatever the music of their culture is.  Be it modal, major, minor, all about complex rhythms, all about melodic line, whatever...  

 

In related news, I heard a fabulous drummer this morning.  She was being pushed by in her stroller, about 2 years old, whacking the stroller tray with a toy car in an excellent display of the innate musical sensibility of the human species, and clearly influenced by American pop music and hip hop.  Four nice neat beats in a 4/4 measure and then, with perfect precision, started going for the off-beats, and then a triplet or two, and then another measure of 4/4 quarter notes as a reference point, and then more off-beats.  Beautiful... all perfectly intentional and done with concentration and obvious delight.  We come into this world musicians, and we absorb whatever is around us to make our musical culture.  

 

Okay, sorry, back to the discussion at hand...  

Pateceramics:

Oh! But I agree with you, not everyone has a tonal ear. I was talking about people who grew with classical music, or even with the common pop and rock, which are also mainly tonal.

If you pay attention, you will notice that the classical music between Bach and Wagner, which is the classical music more heard and famous, it is in its great majority tonal!

 

Always glad to talk on this stuff!

Wrong; atonal music means that there is no hierarchy among the pitches, which do not need to be twelve, by the way. Modal music, on the contrary, relies on hierarchical relationships around a key center.

Wrong again, but nevermind.

In order to have an intelligent conversation, as opposed to an argument, it is necessary to understand that if you don't agree with something, it does not make it "wrong".

 

To say "wrong again, but nevermind" is indicative of a character flaw.

lol, whatever you say.

Pateceramics:

Oh! But I agree with you, not everyone has a tonal ear. I was talking about people who grew with classical music, or even with the common pop and rock, which are also mainly tonal.

If you pay attention, you will notice that the classical music between Bach and Wagner, which is the classical music more heard and famous, it is in its great majority tonal!

 

Always glad to talk on this stuff!

So, where did this whole "pop is tonal" thing come from? As someone who wasn't exposed to classical music until I was in college and instead listened to a lot of pop (in the broad sense) I find myself much better apt at identifying and writing in modes rather than in the tonal system. Now, maybe some of the very, very popular pop music is tonal in some sense, but a large portion of it is also very modal. This is especially true in guitar-based pop, due to guitar's natural affinity for the Phrygian, Aeolian, and the Lydian modes. So, why do so many classical musicians claim that pop is, as a rule, tonal?

So, where did this whole "pop is tonal" thing come from? As someone who wasn't exposed to classical music until I was in college and instead listened to a lot of pop (in the broad sense) I find myself much better apt at identifying and writing in modes rather than in the tonal system. Now, maybe some of the very, very popular pop music is tonal in some sense, but a large portion of it is also very modal. This is especially true in guitar-based pop, due to guitar's natural affinity for the Phrygian, Aeolian, and the Lydian modes. So, why do so many classical musicians claim that pop is, as a rule, tonal?

 

I think that I was not clear enough.

1-I said that "common pop and rock (...) are mainly tonal."

2-I said mainly and not totally.

3-I also have used the reference "common", which helps a bit.

4-And you agree with me when you say: "very popular pop music is tonal in some sense."

5- I will repeat what I said and what I think "common pop is mainly tonal" - the music which is known by commercial music, but even commercial music is not totally modal.

 

Mainly, just mainly.

By looking at traditional music as not being modal, the analysis presents music as something fragmented

into many small pieces without an explanation. The unity and missing explanation is found in a modal

analysis.

In order to have an intelligent conversation, as opposed to an argument, it is necessary to understand that if you don't agree with something, it does not make it "wrong".

 

To say "wrong again, but nevermind" is indicative of a character flaw.

lol, whatever you say.

You guys are both wrong. A 'mode' implies specific pitch arrangements. Music which makes use of all available pitch classes doesn't relay all possible tempered modes simultaneously.

Also, pitch hierarchies exist in much of atonal music.

The "wrong" statement is to say that one point of view is "wrong" and another is "right", a kind of traffic cop

or school teacher mentality. Did it occur to you that no reply on the thread, not even yours, is "wrong".

 

For better or worse, none of the following words used to describe music have consistent meanings: mode,

scale, tonal, tonality, key, atonal, tonal center.

 

To have an open conversation using these words must begin from recognizing that the meanings can

shift depending on such things as the historical context, genre of music, theoretical point of view etc.

 

The definition of each word can encompass all the different points of view and also be open to future

interpretations. There is not an end to it. Neither music or language are ever finalized. If they were there

would be no need to have any kind of communication about them.

The "wrong" statement is to say that one point of view is "wrong" and another is "right", a kind of traffic cop

or school teacher mentality. Did it occur to you that no reply on the thread, not even yours, is "wrong".

You're wrong

For better or worse, none of the following words used to describe music have consistent meanings: mode,

scale, tonal, tonality, key, atonal, tonal center.

Yes, they do.

To have an open conversation using these words must begin from recognizing that the meanings can

shift depending on such things as the historical context, genre of music, theoretical point of view etc.

 

The definition of each word can encompass all the different points of view and also be open to future

interpretations. There is not an end to it. Neither music or language are ever finalized. If they were there

would be no need to have any kind of communication about them.

See second multi-quote. Edited July 4, 2013 by Cadenza91

Jeez, didn't think this thread would cause such an argument...

Jeez, didn't think this thread would cause such an argument...

 

Awww, such endearing naivety...

By starting this thread, you gave that Loch Ness Monster tree fitty.