Choral Competition [DEADLINE PASSED!] View Submissions Thread

[Mike]

Added you as a contestant, The Baroque Enthusiast.

And you've been added as a judge, leightwing. Please try not to get worked up on any "politics" you have been perceiving - I'm confident there have been none. You may have imagined this because I have been unavailable to answer a PM Nick sent me asking to confirm the changes he made.

[leightwing]

Added you as a contestant, The Baroque Enthusiast.

And you've been added as a judge, leightwing. Please try not to get worked up on any "politics" you have been perceiving - I'm confident there have been none. You may have imagined this because I have been unavailable to answer a PM Nick sent me asking to confirm the changes he made. [/b]

Thank you Mike

Nick - I'm sorry if I offended you - I was unsure of how to 'vent' my frustrations and kind of lost my temper there. I'll try and lay low for a while. Looking forward to doing some listening. :)

[pianoman216]

However, a voice that can sing from C below the staff to High C above Middle C is impossible. I have to tell you that Falsetto does NOT count in vocal ranges. If it does, then I can sing from F2-F5 with no problems whatsoever. But seeing as nearly half of that is in falsetto, it doesn't really count. It doesn't mean you can't write music to be sun in Falsetto, but you have to do it tastefully.

Everyone I've talked to has said that falsetto IS part of ones range. But even if it were'nt I can still get to G4 without falsetto, which is a good 3 and a half octaves. So maybe this whole thing is pointless because some of us are refering to range with falsetto (or maybe just me) and everyone else is refering to range without falsetto. I'm sure it is possible to hit 4 octaves without falsetto, just really hard to do. And the soprano I mentioned earlier who can go from E3 to Ab6 does it with out whisle tones.

[Guest Nickthoven]

Leightwing, I'm sorry for any crude remarks I have made. You must understand what your first post seemed to imply to me, also with condescension. It seemed to say that if we didn't change the rules you didn't agree with that we'd lose your influence when the judging comes. This seemed very innapropriate for the thread and I didn't want to have to deal with it any further. And truly, if someone is not willing to accept all of a piece of music, then they are not going to be as accurate a judge as someone who takes everything at face value and leaves biases behind, right? That's all I was trying to say, but I guess I got kind of miffed from your post.

And by changing the rules, I have not just gotten rid of no text-pieces, but I have moved the whole focus of the competition to the setting of text, because I felt that it would prove better in the end to have a tighter set of rules so the judging will not end up being so loosely strung together. If the focus is more exact, like on text-setting, then each piece can be compared to one another as far as that is concerned, making it easier to pick the best one, rather than having it turn into a question of whether or not someone likes the harmonic pallate someone used, you know?

And I'm not sure what you're getting at by saying there has been 'pming' about these decisions, but there hasn't, and I have made all these changes public from the start! Noone told me to change anything, noone told me anything! And you hadn't been added as a judge because I simply forgot! Sorry about that!

[johannhowitzer]

Thinking of writing something really active and chaotic. I could set one of E.E. Cummings' poems... :shifty:

[Guest Nickthoven]

I'm doing Stanley Kunitz - they're all so multi-layered and amazing!

Letehn, 2 pianos should be fine. I pretty much want the composer to do whatever they think will make their piece better, as far as a representation of their chosen text.

To whoever suggested screaming in a piece, go ahead, knock yourself out!

[pianoman216]

Ok, well, heres the update on my piece. I'm coming in at about 1:30 so far (I'm shooting for 3:00 if I can do it, but 4:00 would be even better), and I'm hitting my climax right around there. So now the question is: Do I keep going and expand the ending? Do I leave it alone and just have the climax come a little early? Or do I add another section before the climax so it comes later? Dont answer these questions, as this is a competition, and I want to figure this stuff out on my own. I'm just giving you the update on what I'm trying to figure out, and what I've done so far.

I'd like to hear about how everyone elses pieces are coming along (if you've even started yet). If you dont mind sharing. I think it would be really cool to watch each others progress as this goes on.

[Tumababa]

:vomit:

Seriously? You don't like his vespers?

[Guest Nickthoven]

Pianoman, I intend to set the deadline for submissions far into the future, probably a couple of months. This is to ensure everyone has enough time to write the piece they wish to write, and are not forced to finish up something really quick, resulting in something they regret. So just letting you know that you needn't complete your work now, and that you're gonna have a whole lot of time to work on it between now and when it's due for submission.

But, if you're already done, you've got the edge on the competition!

[Guest Brandon Homayouni]

Rachmaninoff is seriously not my taste (not right now anyway). The colors and textures don't really do it for me. I have an open mind, but at the risk of sounding ignorant, it just isn't beautiful enough, yet unjustly overplayed, compared to, say, my BELOVED Stravinsky. And if I have to hear one more 12 year old Asian pianist chop arrogantly through another Rachmaninoff concerto, I will be forced to spoon my eyes out. The music seems maudlin, and favors virtuosity over grace. I think some [not so versed musically] people only like him because they like to say his long name out loud (j/k). Just my opinion.

[pianoman216]

Thanks for the info Nick. I figured the deadline would be pretty far out, I just decided to get a jump on my piece. I usually write several drafts (I've written up to 22), and I'm currently working on draft 1. I like to finish every piece I do early, then let it sit. When stuff pops out at me to change, I change it.

I love Rachmaninoff's piano pieces, I havent listened to many of his other works. I think what started me on his piano works was probably the movie "1900". They are very challenging pieces that go against common tonality, but still sound nearly perfect.

[johannhowitzer]

I'm seriously considering having some serious pitch slides in my thing. Of course, I need a text first. The main problem with slides is that GPO doesn't have choral patches and MIDI vocals are gonna be horrid. Maybe I can get a local choir to read it for me...

[leightwing]

I'm seriously considering having some serious pitch slides in my thing. Of course, I need a text first. The main problem with slides is that GPO doesn't have choral patches and MIDI vocals are gonna be horrid. Maybe I can get a local choir to read it for me...

One option is to use a non-choral patch that has pitch slides. - I.e. String Quartet - or some instrument or group of instruments that most adequately realizes the articulations that best define the peice. You might even find something that is more appropriate than a choral patch. I can't speak for all of the judges, but I'm pretty confident that if you make decent choices, I will be able to hear the choral equivilent.

[littlechopin]

I have a few questions about the competition..

1. Can it be an piece for solo voice?

2. How many pieces can we enter?

3. When is the earliest time we can submit the music?

[Mike]

1. Can it be an piece for solo voice?

Yes.

2. How many pieces can we enter?

As many as you like, but as a courtesy to the judges, not too many please. :)

3. When is the earliest time we can submit the music?

Submissions will apparently be sent directly to the judges, so I suppose as soon as the email addresses are made available to you.

[leightwing]

Thinking of writing something really active and chaotic. I could set one of E.E. Cummings' poems... :)

Check out Persechetti's "Flower Songs", settings of a number of cumming's poems - for choir with piano accompanyment. Earlier this year, I participated as a singer in a recording of the entire set with one of the ensembles I sing with. I've just started to master it this last month in spits and spurts. I'm not aware of any other recordings of it. It turned out to be an aquired taste for most of the singers, including myself - and interestingly enough, the recordings actually make it more accessible. It is perhaps one of the only pieces I've appreciated more as a listener than a singer.

oh yeah, and thats e.e. cummings - no caps :P

[Maximilian Caldwell]

Of course, I need a text first.

Shakespeare Sonnets?

[Tyler Menzel]

About the whole voice range thing.....I sing tenor and I can sing from E2 i believe it is (the note 2 setps above low c) to D5 (the note one octave above the d above middle c) with good sound, and good breath support. And who is this man that said baritones should reach to Ab or Bb? Impossible. The professional range of a baritone is from F-E not C-B. If you have a multiple range option like myself I can see that but not if you have studied voice you work on that range right there and nothing more.

[leightwing]

About the whole voice range thing.....I sing tenor and I can sing from E2 i believe it is (the note 2 setps above low c) to D5 (the note one octave above the d above middle c) with good sound, and good breath support. And who is this man that said baritones should reach to Ab or Bb? Impossible. The professional range of a baritone is from F-E not C-B. If you have a multiple range option like myself I can see that but not if you have studied voice you work on that range right there and nothing more.

Well, I am not "the man in question" that you speak of but I am a professional working baritone - so I can speak to this issue from first hand experience.

I can, after warming up, vocalize in full voice from Db2 or even C2 to Ab4. Now what I mean by vocalizing is I can reach those notes singing excersizes and vowels which make it somewhat easier to approach those notes. This however, is not my 'working' range. As a soloist, my working range is from F2 to F#4 or roughly 2 octaves. In choral situations where I am a section leader - (a baritone section leader mind you, we have a bass section leader as well), I will dip down into ledger-line-land as needed or as those notes are available, which can depend on a number of factors, like the amount of singing and the overall volumes required.

Notes outside of my working range are not as controlled or controllable as those in my working range. The high Ab in particular, while I can sing it covered and make it sound pretty good, is only available at f or mf at best, and I wouldn't dream of attempting it on a vowel like an 'oo'. I have sung A's before, but it isn't pretty. >_<

To put it in perspective, when preparing to sing a solo that includes an F#, it is not a bad idea to vocalize at least a half-step if not a whole step beyond that in order to have a cushion in performance. So, bottom line: you're both right (uh.. and wrong). Ab's are not impossible, but niether are they reasonable. Now, ask the same question of a true lyric baritone, (I prefer to call them second tenors) and the answer is different. Lyric baritones should be able to easily vocalize to Ab and beyond, even to As and B flats.

[William K.]

Of course, I need a text first.

Shakespeare Sonnets?

what happend to the good old days when everybody used a latin text? :huh:

[johannhowitzer]

I don't know about Shakespeare sonnets. I kinda want to use a text that's more appropriate in a choral situation. Sonnets translate much more easily to solos.

[Guest Brandon Homayouni]

what happend to the good old days when everybody used a latin text? :huh:

I am using a Latin text. I just love my book "Translations and Annotations of the Choral Repertoire: Latin Texts" book. It's about $40. There's also one for German Texts.

Earthsongs Publishing

ISBN 0-9621532-0-6 Hbd

[hummel]

With all this talk about voice range I have to bring a quote from J.J.Fux:

"One has to observe that the closer the parts are led together the more perfect the sound will be, for a power compressed will become stronger."

English is not my strong side but he seems to be talking about voice ranges right???

Anyways, I'm glad that there is this discussion because different theory books usually brings different ranges, which only add to your confusion!!!

It seems that when this book I'm now using "J.J.Fux, Gradus ad Parnassum" was written, the alto voice occasionally took the f below the middle c??? and sometimes even the e as well?! He mentions the original alto clef encompassing the range of the alto voice - which does include the low f - and then he suggest the notes outside this clef to be used occasionally- the e is just outside.

Was this because male voices were singing the alto parts?

In the same way, in only one example in the entire book does the soprano take the high a and g?!

Someone mentioned opera or solo singers capability of reaching notes off range - is there a standard to follow, or is this capability purely individual?

Perhaps what we are looking for is a good book about voice range, showing us the facts.

Does anyone know if there is such a book?

[leightwing]

Hummel, I agree, this is a good topic for conversation here given the nature of this competition. Regarding your question, I don't know. I seem to remember somewhere that a good cantus firmus was not suppose to have a wide range, butI wonder that Fux is talking about voice leading, and is saying that vertical structures voiced more tightly hold more power than those whose voices are spread out? - which is subjective territory, in my opinion.

When Fux talks of voices, I don't know that he's necessarily talking about vocalists. Rather, he's referring to any group of instruments.

Regardless, the issue of vocal range with voices is somewhat different than with orchestral instruments, whose ranges (especially on the bottom end) are terminally defined. But voices are personal instruments that are unique to the individual. Some vocalists have much wider working ranges than others. Even the post adolescent voice matures over the course of decades and range, and especially tone is affected. The bottom end of my vocal range has dipped almost a whole step since my 40th birthday, and I have not lost anything on top.

So where am I going with this? The important thing to keep in mind is WHO you're writing for. Picture in your mind the make-up of the ensemble. Is it your high-school SSA, or college jazz choir, the King Singers, Pavarotti, or the local tenor soloist and your church choir? Put a face and a sound with your thoughts. Make it personal.

Now, having said that. I'm going to describe two different ensembles that I both sing in and write for. I don't know if this is of any help for folks out there but..

Choir 1

An amateur community choir, close-knit, auditioned, ~16 singers. Directed by a local college music professor. Reading level good to excellent. Ages ~ 40+. Average age 50. Intonation: excellent - we don't lose pitch. Sound: soft, round, delicate. Little to no vibrato.

Ranges. Bass: Very soft D's or Eb2's to E4. If you want a forte bass note, F2 is pushing things. Baritones G2 to F#4. Tenors - B2 to G with control. Altos - F3 to E5 - some alto's go lower - down to D3 with divisi - but I wouldn't consider writing down there unless it was only women's voices at that point. Soprano's B3 to A5 - many go higher.

Repertoire - Though we have performed heavier music, we excel at chamber works, and pieces with madrigalish textures. Tighter jazzier voicings and polychords sound nice because of the quality of intonation, lighter vocal style, and lack of vibrato. Precision oriented.

Choir 2

Adult Church Choir. 20+ singers. Eight paid. Ages: you name it, we got it. Not auditioned, Reading abilities range from fair to excellent. There are a number of very good non-paid singers. The difficulty and amount of the material we sing usually discourages poor readers fairly quickly. All section leaders are strong voices, capable of giving convincing solo performances. Ensemble intonation: good, but can waver. Sound: heavy, big for its size, and can be powerful.

Range: Similar to first choir but Basses can sing strong Eb2 and even D2, soft C2's. Baritones range a bit lower as well. High F's are only reachable by the soloists. Alto's are the opposite. They certainly don't go as low as a D. F# is more like it - and they will complain (and rightly so) if they have to hang out there.

Repertoire - Many English Anthems from early to mid 20th century, some requisite non-heavy standard crowd pleasers, but lots of heavies and concerts featuring the likes of Bach, Mozart, Faure, Durfle, Brahms, etc. Contemporaries: Gowers, Whitacre, Petrich, etc.

For those of you who are concerned about ranges, I offer these two choirs as models to consider. Generally speaking, at the extreme bottom of any vocal range, things get softer. Conversely, soft is usually not an option at the top of a given vocal range. Also, consider the vowels that are in play whenever writing at the extremes of a range. TRY AND SING IT YOURSELF in an appropriately similar range for YOUR voice. I will look into getting permission to posting one of my pieces (a short benediction response) recorded by the church choir, which is already on CD. Meanwhile, I will try and post one of my arrangements recorded by the community choir.

[Nightingale Incorporated]

Interesting development here. As a LYRIC baritone, which is how I have always labeled myself, I have a working range from Bb2 to G4. I have an extended range from F-G2 to Ab-Bb4. This is not an atypical voice range for a well trained Lyric Baritone, and I have no problem in the slightest writing solo music for said ranges. Operatic music reaches to these extended ranges quite frequently. However, that does not label such baritones as "second tenors" and I despise being labeled as such. Just as Mezzo's don't typically appreciate being labeled as "second sopranos". My range doesn't dip as low as that of a well trained bass, and doesn't reach as high as a well trained tenor. But as far as baritones are concerned, it's an impressive range indeed.

Basses who can sing deep below the staff (Bb1 and C2) are known typically as "Basso Profundo's" and their range doesn't typically reach above the bass staff. I have a feeling that if they tried to sing high above the staff, they would do so with a whiney or squeeky kind of sound. As for tenors singing below the staff, it would probably sound growled and forced. These are unusable ranges, in my opinion. If you write in a choral setting and you wish to use extreme ranges, that would be fine. Just as long as you are consistent with your ranges. If a Bass is expected to sing from F2-F4 (not unruly for a well-trained bass) then you can't have him singing low D's in one measure and high G's in the next. Unless he is a soloist (and you know anyone who can sing with that much flexibility).

That being said, I have a question for Nichtoven. We have several judges who have varied talents as performers and composers. Should we grade in several different categories? I would say that I would be good for judging solo arias (operatic), romantic choruses, or operatic scenes. I would not, however, be any good to you judging madrigal ensembles or renaissance settings. I think we should divide the compositions into groups and judge them accordingly. The best of each group may advance to the semi-finals, and the best be chosen from there. This seems to be the fairest and most decent way of judging a contest such as this.