Jump to content

Minuet in C


Papageno
 Share

Recommended Posts

Im enjoying composing minuets and marches for beginners on the piano. They are very simple and easy to play. The B section of this minuet is experimental for me, I've tried my hand at counterpoint.

C_major_minuet_20200831_201256_(001).jpg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, I also liked the sound of the B part better. Also, since I litterally just started to have a look at what counterpoint is, I tried to have a closer look at the technicity of the section. Here are a few remarks on the counterpoint (of course, many of those comments might be wrong since I barely even started scratching the surface of counterpoint study):

m10: there are 3 3rds in a row, which is not ideal for independance of the voices

m11: a gap of 12th between parts a bit much and I think it could be avoided

m12: you have a gap of 16th between parts; that's a lot

m13: gap of 19th between parts

m14. 3 3rds in a row. Also, I think repeating patterns in the melody are not recommended in species counterpoint (although in real music I agree that it is important to have repetition)

m16. you have a harmonic interval of 7th on the last beat; which is considered dissonant. Also a gap of 21st between parts

m17: gap of 27th. At the bass, you have a skip of 4th, followed by a skip of 3rd in the same direction, I think it's not recommended

m18: 5th by direct motion on the last beat

m19: consecutive 5th FC->GD

m20: octave following the 2 5th

 

Sorry if there are mistakes in my comments (very likely)m and congrats on the piece!

Edited by Coxi
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Coxi I don't think the large gaps between parts detract from the music as the harmonies are still comprehensible.  If anything the gaps contribute to the independence of the voices - I don't think it would be ideal for all the counterpoint to be in close position as it would really limit the possibilities of the various kinds of voice leading (one would have to avoid crossing voices).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Coxi said:

Hey, I also liked the sound of the B part better. Also, since I litterally just started to have a look at what counterpoint is, I tried to have a closer look at the technicity of the section. Here are a few remarks on the counterpoint (of course, many of those comments might be wrong since I barely even started scratching the surface of counterpoint study):

m10: there are 3 3rds in a row, which is not ideal for independance of the voices

m11: a gap of 12th between parts a bit much and I think it could be avoided

m12: you have a gap of 16th between parts; that's a lot

m13: gap of 19th between parts

m14. 3 3rds in a row. Also, I think repeating patterns in the melody are not recommended in species counterpoint (although in real music I agree that it is important to have repetition)

m16. you have a harmonic interval of 7th on the last beat; which is considered dissonant. Also a gap of 21st between parts

m17: gap of 27th. At the bass, you have a skip of 4th, followed by a skip of 3rd in the same direction, I think it's not recommended

m18: 5th by direct motion on the last beat

m19: consecutive 5th FC->GD

m20: octave following the 2 5th

 

Sorry if there are mistakes in my comments (very likely)m and congrats on the piece!

 

Wow, thank you! Thats a very detailed comment! Very much appreciated. When i wrote the B section I was focusing on the idea of two different melodic sequences playing out of sync and called it counterpoint but in the strictest sense I've not correctly immitated the style. I will correct the errors according to the rules because im curious of the difference. I'll try to keep it close to the original so that we can compare them which will add to the discussion on using the counterpoint rules in 2 part writing in musical forms not traditionally a countrapuntal form. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Coxi has done an amazing job analyzing the counterpoint of the piece. I wanted to make a few remarks (but I am by no means an expert so anyone can correct me if Im wrong).

Quote

m10: there are 3 3rds in a row, which is not ideal for independance of the voices

m11: a gap of 12th between parts a bit much and I think it could be avoided

m12: you have a gap of 16th between parts; that's a lot

m13: gap of 19th between parts

m14. 3 3rds in a row. Also, I think repeating patterns in the melody are not recommended in species counterpoint (although in real music I agree that it is important to have repetition)

I think large gaps are usually nothing to worry about in two-voice counterpoint (maybe really large gaps should be avoided or used scarcely, I am not sure). I have seen intervals as large as 24th in many bach two-part counterpoint pieces. 

Quote

m16. you have a harmonic interval of 7th on the last beat; which is considered dissonant. Also a gap of 21st between parts

I think intervals of the 7th are common in two-voice counterpoint when they outline a seventh dominant chord and the seventh is prepared and resolved correctly. However, I am not sure if it is common in strict counterpoint as I do not remember seeing it in Bach inventions.but I do remember I have seen it in other pieces such as the french suites.

Quote

m17: gap of 27th. At the bass, you have a skip of 4th, followed by a skip of 3rd in the same direction, I think it's not recommended

I heard about two fifths or two fourths in a row not being recommended, since they outline no triad. I did not know about a fourth and a third in a row but I might be wrong. If the jump is upward it makes sense since the chord outlined would be a second inversion chord, which is not that common. In this case I think there would be no problem since the jump is downwards and it is only a momentary jump to the fifth of the chord as a passing chord tone to the third. 

Quote

m18: 5th by direct motion on the last beat

m19: consecutive 5th FC->GD

Nothing to add here, technically they would be considered counterpoint mistakes. In the first case it could be acceptable by some because of the stepwise motion in the soprano. 

I am no expert so I could also be wrong, if anyone see some mistakes correct me please.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope I addressed all the errors mentioned in the previous comments and not made more faux pas. Sticking to the rules as much as I could has given it a more baroque feel I think.

 

 

 

C_major_minuet_v2_20200903_234523_(001).jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, very fast re-wrting Darren! I did not go into the details of the score but it looks like you did a great correction job. I think the end sounds better like that 🙂

 

@JorgeDavid and @PaperComposer: Yes, I'm not sure the gaps are a problem, but the sources I used for the rules on species counterpoint mentionned that, if possible, we should only rarely write intervals bigger than the 10th. However, species counterpoint is merely an exercise and many of its principles dont necessarily apply to an actual piece. But I do think it sounds a bit smoother with shorter intervals in the v2, actually. As for the seventh, I think I was wrong indeed. It's perfectly fine as a passing tone on the weak part of the beat. I just had the impression that actually the note being delayed from before was "resolving" on a 7th, but it's not the case. I think it was ok, my bad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...