Young Composers' Fugue Challenge

If it's going to be a hassle, then don't worry about it.

I have a question though, hopefully with which you can help. When, in Bach-style counterpoint, is the interval of a fourth acceptable? For example, I'm currently analysing Bach's ridiculously complicated Fugue no.6 in D minor from the Well-Tempered Clavier Book I, and there are loads of 4ths inbetween parts (for example, in bar 3) that seem dissonant. When are they allowed?

I'd appreciate anything else you think I might find useful, since I've done all my counterpoint so far by ear, and although I think it sounds quite authentic sometimes, I'd much rather prepare myself for doing it properly by eliminating things such as rogue fourths from my musical 'ear.' I don't find myself writing parallels accidentally, but fourths I do. . . . but when are they allowed? Arrgh!

I don't want to write music that sounds like bleeding Palestrina!

Learn the rules, then use them to suit your style.

I don't want to write music that sounds like bleeding Palestrina!

It's important to learn the rules first. You can then transgress them or bend them later, but you need to know them in order to understand when and how to do so.

Fourths are entirely acceptable between upper parts when a chord is in second inversion: (from low to high) E G C. There is a fourth between G and C, but it has been considered acceptable since renaissance times, since the bass forms consonances with the G and C (E-G is a 3rd, E-C a 6th). This fourth is always considered consonant.

On the other hand, a fourth from the bass is a dissonance. It is still often used as a nonchord tone. This fourth can also occur on the beat. It is not uncommon to see, in Bach, something like C in the bass and in upper part F, then E. In this case C-F is a fourth, and F is probably an appoggiatura, an accented passing tone or a suspension. The F is not a member of the C chord, and it resolves to the E.

A special case of the above is the cadential 64 chord. Here you might see G (the dominant in C major) with C and E above it. This tonic chord in second inversion then resolves to the dominant; the C descends to B and the E to D. In this case, the C and E can usually be considered as suspensions, passing tones, or appoggiaturas.

Also, when a bass melody arppeggiates through chord tones, it is not uncommon for it to move into 2nd inversion for a moment. The fourths thus created are usually acceptable in baroque and later styles.

Also, I've noticed in much fugal music, the fourth shows up (always briefly) in sections with only two voices, perhaps even when both parts are in 1:1 counterpoint (in the same rhythm). Here the fourth is usually a fast chord tone or a quick passing tone used to move on to a sixth or third.

So, in Bach's fugues, you will find fourths everywhere... I hope this helped; if you already knew all this then just ignore it :P.

Just to add, Bach in particular often shows disregard for this restriction on fourths in his keyboard music with a lot of counterpoint, thus providing more freedom for contrapuntal inventions (he also freely uses direct 5ths and octaves, even in 2 voices. He does, however, avoid parallelels).

You will see free use of chords with the 5th in the lowest voice and many of these times forming a 4th with the next voice above (ie the "root" of the chord in the second lowest voice).

PraeludiumUndFuge, I'm glad to hear more of your music. There aren't enough neobaroque composers around. I like the fugue, although I would have played it a bit faster. I liked the tonal colors in your sequences and also the strettos. The strettos were by far the most interesting parts; on the other hand, I thought the compound line melody you introduced around 1:19 didn't really fit in. But all of my issues with this fugue are with your motive choices, and thus are purely about my own tastes in music; I don't really disagree with them but I would have written them differently. I liked how the end began to build up with a re-exposition, but then it seemed like you ended it too soon... you need more buildup before the final cadence.

Don't worry though. I hope I don't sound too negative; it is an excellent fugue.

I'm beginning the b-minor subject; it has the exact sort of chromatic line I want in my music... And it is especially suited to inversion. I'm planning on making a really short fugue or perhaps a Froberger-style canzona or capriccio (though I'll call it ricercar, sounds more noble) in three rhythmic sections, the middle one in compound time, with maybe a toccata style ending. I'm trying to figure out a stylistic balance between tonality and ultrachromaticism, continuous rhythms (Bach) and more wild ones (Froberger), counterpoint and harmony, and above all a smooth melodic line that still remains creative (Buxtehude).

So far I'm into the first episode.

Well, I guess I thought this would be easier... but it is actually quite challenging.... this is my second rewrite and it is still unfinished.

Here I begin at the exposition, which states the subject four times, although I leave the counterpoint below three voices throughout (The lowest voice drops out at the second answer). My feeling is that the countersubject might be a bit strong, and the exposition a bit repetitive because there is no new material - the second countersubject is mostly filler.

Then the first episode lasts two measures and introduces a nice motive. I was planning a short fugue, so I kept the episodes small.

Then two statements of the theme in the dominant.

Following is a short episode that develops suspensions resolving with a double neighbor figure.

Then the subject twice in the relative major.

Then echurchill is lost.

I can't really decide how to finish, because I don't like how it has turned out so far. Me and my harpsichord teacher agree that it is too repetitive. Should I state the theme less? Should I repeat the double neighbor figure less? Should I make the episodes longer? If so, then how do fugues without episodes or very short ones work? And finally, if I make my episodes longer, how do I know that the theme will be highlighted rather than lost? I'm currently answering my own questions.

I was planning to make the final episode modulate back to b-minor and state the subject and its inversion a few times, ending with a nice cadence or half-cadence. Introducing a new idea during the recapitulation might sound dangerous, but I was planning on making this a multi-sectional canzona/capriccio. But now I'm so frustrated with this section that I probably won't add any others. Ultimately the problem is that I am unready for fugal writing.

I would greatly appreciate any advice or guidance.

I would greatly appreciate any advice or guidance.

Do you have a score you can show us? An MP3 is not good enough for me as I can't reconstruct the voices from there.

Sorry, I don't have a score at all... but I'm not too worried about any details of counterpoint as much as thematically what to do. Did you find it too repetitive? I could post a MIDI if that would help.

Canzona b-moll.mid

Sorry, I don't have a score at all... but I'm not too worried about any details of counterpoint as much as thematically what to do. Did you find it too repetitive? I could post a MIDI if that would help.

A fugue is first and foremost a writing exercice. Unless you show the score, I can't help you at all. Maybe others can. I can't easily reconstruct the score from a MIDI either.

May I ask why you don't have a score? How did you write your fugue then?

I understand, thats OK. Maybe I'll put all the notes into Lilypond or something later. I always write my music by hand and then input the music note by note into a MIDI program, so that I can control phrasing and articulation. I'll probably make a good score after I finish the entire fugue/ricercar.

Here is my A Minor Fugue. Hope you enjoy!

aminor fun.MID

hj.MUS

Here is my A Minor Fugue. Hope you enjoy!

I'll look at the score in more detail later, but I have a first remark: you did not end the piece with a perfect authentic cadence. Is this a deliberate choice?

Further remarks: I've looked at the first entry, and I see some weird things there, harmonically speaking.

In bar 5, when the answer enters, you an an empty 5th (missing the 3rd). The same disposition re-occurs in bar 7 (A - E again). An empty 5th should be avoided, but can be tolerated if there is an immediate melodic move that brings in the 3rd before the next chord change. Something not happening.

Then at the next bar, there is a curious use of a 6:4 chord with the E in the bass (alto) and the arpegiated A-C at the soprano. This 6:4 is on the 4th degree (IV), so it would be acceptable if it were surrounded by I chords, which is not the case.

For the second entry, in bar 10, I don't understand the harmony you're trying to imply here. Since we have 3 sounds, it should be more explicit: you start the entry with what appears to be A-C-E, which is I, but the suspended C in the alto resolves to a B at a most unexpected place (C - A outlined by bass-soprano, so this is a I6 -- why adding a B there?), where it is completely dissonant.

I haven't looked further for now, I'm awaiting for your explanations on what you are trying to achieve at those particular spots.

this is my first shot a fugal writing, i've been doing alot of reading, and trying to actually put to use wat i've been reading. guess it's back to the drawing boards, sorry i don't have a teacher to tell me what's right and wrong.

this is my first shot a fugal writing, i've been doing alot of reading, and trying to actually put to use wat i've been reading. guess it's back to the drawing boards, sorry i don't have a teacher to tell me what's right and wrong.

No problem, fugal writing is not easy and I understand perfectly your frustration.

May I recommend you start the fugue over by first trying to harmonize the subject "properly", and once you are done with harmonization, write the counterpoint to the answer so that it fits your harmonization?

Also, a fugue should end with a perfect authentic cadence. This means a V - I progression in fundamental position and with the tonic in the soprano on the final I chord. In your fugue, you've ended with V6 - I, which is NOT a cadence.

Regarding your ending, I thought it was a shame to have the C# appear so early. The D is the 7th of your V chord, and resolving it to C# to create a Picardy Third is a good idea, but don't do that before the final chord.

how do you go about hamonizing the subject properly?

You write down block chords, above or underneath it, that is you try to see how you would harmonize the subject when it is in the soprano, and which harmonies it can sustain when it is placed in the bass.

You must make sure that the harmonic progression is sound, like in any harmonization exercise. For examples, you can look at the lesson I'm taking with Majesty on the subject of fugal writing...

Look here: http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/lesson-ram-7770.html

You write down block chords, above or underneath it, that is you try to see how you would harmonize the subject when it is in the soprano, and which harmonies it can sustain when it is placed in the bass.

You must make sure that the harmonic progression is sound, like in any harmonization exercise. For examples, you can look at the lesson I'm taking with Majesty on the subject of fugal writing...

Look here: http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/lesson-ram-7770.html

THANK YOU SO MUCH! It's great seeing someone being taught, i think that's the hardest part. I've been analysing Bach Fugues in hopes of figuring it out, but it seems as to only make things worste because I realize I'm lost. I get the overall general idea, it's just the rules, and learning how to harmonize that frustrates me. Thank you though, i'm just eager to continue to see this subject worked out! =)

I decided to try my hand at one (I'll probably use it later for extra credit, too).

It's still not completely satisfying, especially the part where it goes to Eb major. I think going first to Cm would have been wiser. I'll fix it soon.

Anyway, here's my fugue in Bb Major.

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7574&stc=1&d=1185314410

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7575&stc=1&d=1185314410

Any suggestions?

(oh, yeah. it's a 4-voice "short fugue")

Ariel Hoffman

P.S. I don't like the ending. I can never seem to get those codas right. :|

revised - too many parallels, even for me!

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7582&stc=1&d=1185414649

Fugue in Bb - AYH.mid

פוגה בסי במול מז'

fugue -revised.mus

Comment withdrawn.

(After hearing your rendition of the Cm subject)

wow! very impressive!

some of the rising modulations were a little harsh, but as one of my teachers wisely remarked - "who cares about minor details if the music is great?!"

I wish my finale could read it properly. any chance of a .mus ?

way to go, Brandon.