Lesson with Mark

I am going away to Buffalo, NY and will be back on Wednesday. We will resume lessones then. :D

Okies :P

Ok, I'm back. Were you able to come up with anything you feel confident is showing or perhaps something you've worked on in the orchestra that you'd like further help with?

After hours of trying, I haven't been able to come up with anything remotely pleasant sounding ;)

What has been your approach to trying to create material for your orchestra based on musical material already present in your piece?

I've been using the motifs, and snippets from the theme, and trying to stick them in in various places in the string parts, doesn't seem to be working as of yet. I'll keep trying, but I'm not expecting anyhting great to cdome out, I seem to have exhausted everything that might be done, and all of it sounds crap.

Don't let yourself get frustrated or dismayed.

I've attached your concerto with one measure of orchestral material using previous material from the recorder solo and ritornello. One other note, the placement of "molto rubato" should be above the staff of the Recorder solo. If you have access to back violin or keyboard conertos take a look at how he "recycles" and uses variations of his material for his orchestra.

Ah, what you're doing makes a lot of sense, it would appear that I've been massively over-complicating everything and assuming it was far more difficult than it actually was, I do a lot of that :angry:

Thanks for that, I'll now have another bash at it, and hopefully get a lot further than I have previously.

I've had a good go at this, and been considerably more successful than in previous attempts. The second and fourth phrases don't have much different, because there's something going on that needs the listener's attention more, the imitation, and the modulation respectively.

:(

Recorder Concerto.MUS

Ok, good. I will post comments later on today or tomorrow. :blink:

Ok, I've taken a look and a listen.

1) The orchestra section starting at measure 9 is much better.

2) Measures 11-12 still strike me as a bit akward. How strongly do you feel about what you've composed for these two measures?

3) Don't forget to continue adding dynamics and expressions and phrasing lines to add more dimension to your work. You already have a few dynamics and expressions but don't stop there.

4) Beware of falling into the trap of creating boring bass lines or boring parts in general. The recorder may be the featured instrument on display but its nice to know that the other parts can keep a certain level of interest. Just giving you a warning.

That's all I have to say for now. I know its not much, but I'm a little tired right now, but I wanted to give you some comments at least.

I am liking the progress that you are making. Continue working on whatever new material you plan on adding to this movement. Let me know what you think and I will have more comments for you.

:)

I agree about measures 11 and 12, perhaps I should just scrap them? they seem to be a little out of place with everything, and I think I've become a little too attatched to them, and just because of that imitation. I'll have a play around, see if I can come up with anything that fits more and is easier to harmonise. I'll have a look at adding phrasing marks and dynamics where required.

I too am incredibly please with progress, I never normally get this far with pieces, I usually don't get past the first four bars before scapping something.

;)

I like the idea of measures 11-12. Try reworking it before scrapping it, completely. I'd rather you make some attempts of reworking before deciding to throw away an idea you like.

I've had a look at this, and realised that changing one note in the viola part from E to F makes the progression make complete sense. The progression in that part is now | Vm - IV - | I6 - Vm VM |

Forgot the file :)

Recorder Concerto.MUS

I am taking a look at your concerto and will post comments later this week. :thumbsup:

I do like the change to F in the viola. If you feel strongly and are happy with measures 11-12, then continue with the concerto and post whenever you are ready.

On a personal note, I'm not crazy about the voice leading on the 4th beat of measure 12 leading into measure 13 in the 2nd violin and viola.

I've fixed the voice leading in the places mentioned.

I'm wondering, with this solo, should I plan the progression completely beforehand, then write a solo to fit (like with the second half of the first solo), or come up with the solo line then harmonise to fit? I'm leaning towards the former, as it means I can use secondary dominants and so on more effectively, and plan the modulation properly. What do you think?

I have an idea for the next solo: A sequential progression(in Bm):

| I III | VI VofV | cadence into V and use the same progression, and then again, so we'd be in C#m after 6 bars, I can then easily modulate to E major, which is where the next ritornello wilol be.

Hope that made sense :)

I've fixed the voice leading in the places mentioned.

I'm wondering, with this solo, should I plan the progression completely beforehand, then write a solo to fit (like with the second half of the first solo), or come up with the solo line then harmonise to fit? I'm leaning towards the former, as it means I can use secondary dominants and so on more effectively, and plan the modulation properly. What do you think?

I have an idea for the next solo: A sequential progression(in Bm):

| I III | VI VofV | cadence into V and use the same progression, and then again, so we'd be in C#m after 6 bars, I can then easily modulate to E major, which is where the next ritornello wilol be.

Hope that made sense :D

Ok, you seem to be on the right track as far as thinking about leading your piece harmonically to your next ritornello entrance. When planning your harmonic structure or melodic layout for harmonization, it is always important to know how you will want to use your motifs to shape your solo moments as well as shaping and giving form to the entire piece. I think it will be a good idea to think about how many times you will want the ritornello to be heard. Although ritornellos are meant to be heard multiple times you certainly don't want the listener to get tired of hearing the ritornello by the end of the piece. That is one reason why I had suggested that you have the ritornello appear in more distant keys. I am hoping that having the ritornello appear in more distant keys will force you to think about harmonic direction and form of the piece.

You can certainly creat a harmonic layout and then create melodic material to accompany it. But in doing so, try not to limit your thinking to consonant triads. Try to think about suspensions, anticipations, dissonances resolving withing the harmonies themselves as well as when you create your melody to accompany the planned harmonies.

If you should decided to create the melodic material first and then harmonize it, becareful not to be tempted to turn your orchestra into a 4-part choral exercise. You'll still need to think about shaping and moving the piece forward within the orchestra.

Also, have you thought about using false/imcomplete ritornello entrances to your advantage?

Also, have you thought about using false/imcomplete ritornello entrances to your advantage?

I haven't could you perhaps give me some idea as to how this might be done? I'd like to have a full ritornello in E major, as it'll be in a different mode as previously heard, but an incomplete entrace, if it's what I think it is, could be a useful tool to break up the last solo (which I plan to be longer, and involve possibly violin 1 and the cello as solo instruments)

An example of an imcomplete entrance of your ritornello could happen at anytime. It could even happen at the expected moment after the solo. The ritornello would start and say after the 1st or 2nd measusre you would cut it off and bring in the solo again. It would present itself as an opportunity for other harmonic/melodic points of interest.

I see what you mean now, that sounds like something I might employ, probably in the middle of the third solo.

Any advice on coming up with more ideas for solos?

Here is my proposed chord progression for the next solo, going from B minor to E major, two chords per bar:

Ritornello in B minor |Bm D | G C# | F#m A | D G# | C#m E | A B | E C#m | F#m B7 | Ritornello in E major

I see what you mean now, that sounds like something I might employ, probably in the middle of the third solo.

Any advice on coming up with more ideas for solos?

Once again, I'm going to go back to my statement about being as economic as you can with your themes and motifs. Try going back and talking a look at your motifs again and sketch reworkings, transpositions, variations and even combinations of various motivic ideas including all of the above. Of course you can work with certain harmonic ideas if you have any.

Here is my proposed chord progression for the next solo, going from B minor to E major, two chords per bar:

Ritornello in B minor |Bm D | G C# | F#m A | D G# | C#m E | A B | E C#m | F#m B7 | Ritornello in E major

going for a bit of seuence, I see. Looks good. You could also take the time to sketch a harmonic sequence that is not as traditional or expected as the circle of 5ths. What ever sequence you come up with, make sure that you don't include too much random material. Try and use your motifs. Some "free composition" is ok but make sure it doesn't take away or destroy the fabric of your piece.

So far, you harmonic layout, for the most part have all been traid in root position. Perhaps you should consider various inversions and a few extended triads(7ths and 9ths), here and there.