Concerto for Orchestra

I have a quick question. Does a concerto for orchestra have the same form as a normal concerto just no solo instument?

Thanks!

yes, minus the cadenza, as such

a "concerto for orchestra" is whatever you WANT it to be.

The idea is that instead of having a single instrument (or small group of instruments) as solo/soli, you are treating ALL groups of the orchestra in a solistic manner.

None of the recordings I have of any "concerto for orchestra" (Bartok, Lutoslawski, Hindemith) have anything remotely resembling a "traditional" form.

Besides, in this day and age, the question "what form does X have?" is almost laughable. Form has taken on a new significance. It can act as an outline, an impression, a guideline. In this age of completely relaxed tonality, it rarely has as defining a role as it did at the height of common practice tonal music.

Ok....ok this is great.

Thanks!!

Besides, in this day and age, the question "what form does X have?" is almost laughable.

Although I know what you mean, I think you should add a touch of nuance to that statement; it's a perfectly good thing to wonder 'what form defines a sonata' or whatever (to enhance one's understanding of the works by composers of another age), but I think you meant that nowadays it is not as useful to know 'how to write a sonata' or 'how to write a concerto' in the strict sense as it was in the past, when creating new music.

At the bottom line, I think you're right though in saying that a concerto or even a sonata has no predefined form nowadays, because a concerto is nothing more than a piece to showcase one or more instruments and a sonata is just an elaborate way of taking material and working on it.

Although I know what you mean, I think you should add a touch of nuance to that statement; it's a perfectly good thing to wonder 'what form defines a sonata' or whatever (to enhance one's understanding of the works by composers of another age), but I think you meant that nowadays it is not as useful to know 'how to write a sonata' or 'how to write a concerto' in the strict sense as it was in the past, when creating new music.

At the bottom line, I think you're right though in saying that a concerto or even a sonata has no predefined form nowadays, because a concerto is nothing more than a piece to showcase one or more instruments and a sonata is just an elaborate way of taking material and working on it.

actually, I STILL think it's important to know "how" to write a classical sonata.

what is obviously not important, as evidenced by the repertoire out there, is the application of those definitions in a strict sense.

A "sonata form" is largely regulated by key relationships (tonal relationships) in pre-20th century music. Post 20th century, this is no longer the case. A "sonata-allegro" movement can still have two themes, and a development, a recapitulation, and a coda, but the over-all internal structure will more than likely NOT be regulated by key relationships.

And how many sonatas, concertos, symphonies are there in the repertoire (post 20th century, of course) that do NOT hold to even the "standard" 3-4 movement form? Many. Or even the idea that a symphony is a "sonata for orchestra" - as evidenced by Schostakowitch's 14th symphony.

I DO think it is imporant to know how to structure as many "classical" forms (which includes forms from many eras, which is why it is in quotes) as possible, and to understand them completely. Without that understanding and thorough assimilation of their form the composer has nothing on which to structure his own music. "Deviation from the norm" has to be done from SOME "norm", doesn't it! If you break from tradition, you need to undertstand WHAT that tradition is and WHY you are doing it.

In other words, having no idea WHAT a rondo is and just slapping the name on a piece, is not an acceptable approach. :D

The classical forms are good forms. There is a REASON so many composers used them. They are well balanced. They satisfy the ear and the listener's inner sense of over-all structure. So please don't misconstrue my comment for an abandonment of those forms.

I will therefore "clarify" my comment:

A concerto for orchestra may have whatever form you wish it to have, as long as that form is balanced and satisfying. Do not feel that it is somehow a "strict" form with specific requirements as far as movements are concerned, since it is purely an invention of the 20th century.

:)